647

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TWENTY-THIRD DAY
________

                                                                                                                                          MONTGOMERY, ALA.,

                                                                                                                                                 Tuesday, June 18, 1901.

     The Convention met persuant to adjournment, was called to order by the President and the proceedings were opened with prayer by the Rev. Mr. Murphy as follows:

     O God, King Eternal, Immortal, Invisible, God of our Fathers' fathers and of our children's children, guard we pray Thee, at our hands, the welfare of this State and people. Keep the land, which Thou hast given us by the blood of heroes from the past, and which, through our hearts and deeds, Thou hast given unto the days hereafter. Help us to be pure in purpose, wise in counsel, diligent in service. Keep Thou the way of our hearts, guard Thou the door of our lips. Drive far from us all hatred, pride, and prejudice, and whatsoever else may hinder us from godly union and concord, that the peace of brethren may temper the counsels of truth, and that the bonds of a common patriotism may knit the fab of our Constitution.

     Bless those of us who are here today; and bless the absent. Wherever sickness or death or sorrow fall, bring there the spirit of renewal, and the vision of the pure in heart. Within the homes of all who serve Thee in this house, whether they be near or far, bring the assurance of Thy love and the knowledge of Thy care. Abide with us, sustain us, guide us! We ask it in the Christ's name. Amen.

     The roll was called and showed the presence of 134 delegates.

     The report of the Committee on Journal that the journal for the twenty-second day was correct was read and no motion adopted.

     MR. GRAHAM -- I ask unanimous consent to introduce a short resolution to be referred.

     The resolution was read as follows:

     Resolved, That it is the sense of this convention that the present $510,000 and the special one mill tax which approximates $250,000 for public schools shall not be reduced or repealed by this convention either directly or indirectly.


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     Referred to Committee on Education.

     MR. WILLIAMS (Marengo)--I ask unanimous consent to introduce an ordinance.

     Ordinance 381 by Mr. Williams of (Marengo) by request.

     Whereas, the imprisonment in the penitentiary of certain classes of our people makes of them among their own people more a hero than the convict,

     Therefore, be it ordained by the people of Alabama in convention assembled, that the legislature shall at its first session hereafter, establish a whipping post.

     Referred to Committee on Legislative Department.

     Ordinance 382 by Mr. Pettus:

     Be it ordained by the people of Alabama no white person shall intermarry with any negro or descendant of a negro to the third generation inclusive, nor shall any negro or the descendant of any negro to the third generation inclusive intermarry with any white person. It shall be the duty of the legislature to enforce this section by appropriate legislation, provided that the penalty for the violation of this section shall be not less than three years in the penitentiary.

     Referred to Committee on Legislative Department.

     MR. BROOKS--I move a suspension of the rules in order that I may offer a resolution expressing the sense of the convention against the adopting of an ordinance providing for female suffrage.

     A vote being taken the house refused to suspend the rules.

     MR. BROWNE--I desire to introduce an ordinance and ask unanimous consent.

     MR. WADDELL--I call for the regular order.

     THE PRESIDENT--Objection is made:

     MR. BROWNE--The resolution ought to go along with other resolutions introduced and referred to the Committee on Education, and I ask the gentleman to withdraw objection in order that my resolution may go along with the other resolutions.

     MR. WADDELL--I withdraw for that.

     The ordinance was read as follows:

     Ordinance 383, by Mr. Browne:


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     Be it ordained by the people of Alabama in convention assembled that Section of Article XIII of the Constitution be amended to read as follows (relates to schools):

     Sec. 5. The income arising from the sixteenth section trust fund, the surplus revenue fund, until it is called for by the United States Government, and the funds--enumerated in Section 3 and 4 of this article, with such other moneys, to be not less than $550,000 per annum, as the General Assembly may provide by taxation or otherwise, shall be applied to the support and maintenance of the public schools, and in addition thereto, there shall be levied and collected an annual special tax of one mill one each one hundred dollars of taxable property within the State, for the use of such schools, and it shall be the duty of the General Assembly to increase, from time to time, the public school fund, as may be necessary and the condition of the treasury and the resources of the State will admit.

     Referred to Committee on Education.

     MR. LONG--Mr. President, no one more than myself regrets that I have again to ask the indulgence of this convention in rising to a question of personal privilege. In The Advertiser of this morning in speaking about my remarks, there is again an insulting insinuation as to myself which I consider uncalled for. It is certainly unwarranted by the facts and as an honest man and as a delegate in this convention I am forced to ask the indulgence of the convention while I explain. I ask the clerk to read the editorial headed "Remarkable Foresight" as part of my remarks.

     The editorial was read as follows:

REMARKABLE FORESIGHT

     It will be recalled by readers of The Advertiser that early in the session of the Convention, when it was decided to have a stenographic report, there was strong opposition to it. One of the leaders in that opposition was the Hon. Tom Long of Walker County. In the light of his course in the last few days, it will be interesting to recall some of his reasons for objecting to the employment of an official stenographer. We quote some of his words taken from the official record

     "I do not believe we should have a record of what we say."

     "I can see no good reason why we should have reports of everything that is said in this Convention."

     "I do not think we should have a political record there in black and white that some of the delegates will have to be dodging for twenty years to come."


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     The public at the time may not have understand fully Mr.Long's attitude in this matter, but a flood of light seems to have been let in upon his zeal in the last few days. Could he have realized in advance how many things he was liable to say that would not read well in print? Did he have a foreboding of the way the Convention was going to disregard his views and table his resolutions? Could he have foreseen that he was going to make a record in black and white that would not be calculated to make his constituents regard him as a Solomon hereafter? Is it not likely that he had a sort of a presentment of some necessity for "dodging for twenty years to come?"

     No man has ever had greater foresight from his individual standpoint than Mr. Long. The member of a Constitutional Convention who leads a forlorn fight on the freedom of the press at this late day in the American Republic, was wise in opposing a record of "everything that is said." The probabilities are that it will require a great deal of dodging to get around it in the future.

     MR. LONG (Walker)--No, Mr. President, it seems that The Advertiser has brought in a new deck of cards and proposes to hold me personally responsible, or publicly insult me because I saw fit upon this floor to oppose the employment of a stenographer or stenographers, for a stenographic report of the proceedings of this Convention. I did it because I thought it was unwise for this Convention to pay $70 per day to employ stenographers to report to the people of Alabama what we had to say, which I considered then was not worth a dime, and which I still consider is not worth it. So far as being a demagogue or dodging an issue, I have never dodged an issue in my life. My constituents have never yet called me a demagogue, and have never yet failed to honor me politically whenever I saw fit to offer for office in my county.

     I have never dodged a Democratic ticket. I have never dodged an issue of the Democratic party. I have never by word or act insulted, grossly insulted, people, in the press or otherwise, that they would have to use physical violence in order to rebuke me.

     Now, so far as The Advertiser is concerned, if they would state the plain truth, I would care no more for what they say that I would for a fice dog barking on one of the hilltops in North Alabama, but they do not state the facts when they say that my resolutions have been defeated in this Convention. The resolution of rebuke against The Advertiser has never been voted on by this Convention. A majority vote upon that was denied by an aye and no vote, and the Committee on Rules will report this fact; as they should do, even it they report the resolution without recommendation. I am perfectly willing to abide the decision of the majority of this Convention, let it be what it may. I am not like many of the delegates here, that have gotten so used to slanders that I can dodge my head under the desk and say it was


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not intended for me. I do say that it was an insult to a majority and over two-thirds majority of this Convention when the official organ of this Convention, the official organ itself should designate by a vote upon a question, and should hold up members to task and call them timid and afraid to go on record by an aye and no vote.

     I think it was an insult to the intelligence of this Convention, but I could have dodged that issue, had I been so disposed, because I was only one of 90 to which it referred, and that would not have been a question of personal privilege. Mr. President, if it had been hurled at the Convention as a whole, but it was hurled at a two-thirds majority of this convention, and they were designated by the ayes and noes in that same paper, and I consider it then, and still consider it a personal privilege; that it was a personal insult, and that the members upon this floor were insulted, and grossly insulted. I owe no apology to The Advertiser, nor to any one else, for my official action. I have a right to oppose the big six, or the little six, in this Convention. I have a right to vote as the dictates of my conscience direct, and it is an insult, and a gross insult, for one of these little sap-headed editors, with a head on him like a two by five watermelon, to get up in a back room over a store, or over some establishment, and come out with a dollar and a quarter's worth of type and a dime's worth of blacking and say "we, the people, criticise your action."

     Now, Mr. President, I am perfectly willing to let the matter go, but until an aye and no vote has been taken upon this floor on that resolution, I claim the right to ask and I give notice now, that I shall ask the Committee on Rules to report that resolution of mine, whether they do so without recommendation, or under an adverse or favorable report. I have never yet seen fit before to be abused in the public print, and let them go back and charge me with infidelity and treason, and with malice and with assuming the garb of a demagogue, by dodging issues. It is more than many members on this floor can say, because numbers of them have come to me and said: "Long, you are right, it was an insult, but we are afraid of The Advertiser."

      I am not afraid of any paper, nor class of papers. Neither am I afraid of anything, except my own conscience, and when my conscience tells me that I am right, I gladly go on record, though every man in Alabama is opposed to it.

     Mr. President, those are the only remarks that I desire to make. I hope it will not be necessary for me to again refer to this matter. I am perfectly willing to let The Advertiser editorial be read as the bill of indictment, and without remarks by the big six or the little six, let the Convention then and there vote upon it, that we may have an honest expression of the majority of the Convention, which is the only way that it can be obtained.


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     The following leaves of absence for today were granted.

     Messrs. Malone, Sollie, Renfroe.

     MR. REESE--I ask unanimous consent to offer a resolution.

     Objection was made.

     THE PRESIDENT--The Secretary will call the roll of Delegates for the introduction of ordinances, etc.

     MR BLACKWELL--I am requested by a prominent colored man of my town to introduce this petition.

     The petition was read as follows:

     Mr. President and Members of the Alabama Constitutional Convention:

     Realizing the fact that no member of the negro race is represented in your august body to speak one word for us, we must appeal to you in this manner. Being Southern born, of ex-slaves, Southern raised, within the city where you are now in session, and having spent my energies among my people in this State for thirty years, I represent the product of Alabama negro manhood. I speak the sentiments of thousands of my race whose timidity locks their mouths.

     We have made many errors since emancipation. We were weaker than now, and prone to mistakes, but, gentlemen, could you have looked for perfection in a race of ignorant liberated people. No matter how ignorant we were thirty years ago, and no matter how intelligent we become one hundred years from now, yet the fact remains the same--that then, now and henceforth we realize that the negro's best friend is the Southern white man. You have proven your genuine friendship to us all along. You have given us work at any trade at which we were proficient. You have given us good schools, gone into your own pocket to educate us. You have given us counsel when we were in need of advice, for all of which we are grateful, and we hope we have proven the same to you. Do not expect more of us than of any other race at the same stage of development. We know that the salvation of the negro is in your hands. You can make us industrious, contented, loyal and useful citizens, or you can make us shiftless, discontented and good?for?nothing. You are framing a constitution for future government of generations of negroes of Alabama, as well as of other races. We are interested, because we are lawabiding and must live up to your new constitution or get out. Say to us, forsooth, that you are black, that your hair is kinky or features Hamitic, or say that, forsooth, some negro blood is in your veins, you cannot enjoy the franchise in Alabama, and you at once relegate us to the ranks of a brute. We would have not one incentive to go forward. You would cripple an already weak race.

     We are among you, and satisfied. It was not of our own free will that we are here. Like other nations of the far East, we did not migrate here and force ourselves upon you. Had we done so it might be fair and conservative that you say to us, "Get out," or drive us out by discriminative


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methods that were basely unjust. But, gentlemen, we were snatched from our motherland, heathens. By the providence of God we were brought here, and for three hundred years toiled for you as your slaves.

     American slavery, though wrong, was a blessing to us. In its school of three hundred years we learned trades, language, customs and the religion of Jesus Christ. There is a just God who guards the destiny of nations and in His own time slavery was abolished and we were left among you ignorant of franchise and government with no education or character.

     Be conservative to us, gentlemen. Do not deal a crushing blow. A blow from you at this critical moment--with no flag except the glorious stars and stripes for which we have bled and died; no friend except you, whose fathers and mothers we have guarded from harm, and you yourself whom we have cherished and cared for while the Southern man fought for a Lost Cause--would be as Brutus's dagger of steel warming its blade in the life-blood of Caesar. The tickle of our hoe has made your lands laugh forth in harvests. Our axe has cleared your forests. We have built your cities. Our picks have sunk down into the bowels of the earth and thrown up iron and coal. We emerged from slavery and went at once to work at whatever price you valued our labor. We do not cause any organic disturbance by strikes. We are striving to fit ourselves for citizenship. We petition and implore you to not disturb our content by an unjust franchise. If you place an educational qualification that touches all alike, we are satisfied. In short, we, though only thirty-five years old, are willing to be weighed in the scale of manhood and measured with a tape of justice.

     Alabama one of the greatest States of the Union; one upon whom the eyes of the world are turned at present, a State whose alphabetical arrangement stands first of the States of the greatest country of God's creation (a country upon whose territory the sun never sets), can not afford to disfranchise several hundred thousand of its citizens; can not afford to remove the public educational fund from them. An educated dog is worth a hundred good-for-nothing curs. We do not demand anything of you. We can not demand if we would. We simply entreat you as honest citizens to frame a consititution that will not disgrace the wisdom of Alabama; that will not cause us to degenerate; that will not cause us discontent; that will not cause us to doubt your friendship which we have cherished for near four hundred years. Frame a constitution that will be a pride of the State--one that we will be proud of, as well as you; one that will benefit both races. Frame a constitution that will place you at the head of the column of sister States where you belong. Do not drive us into degredation. What incentive would a $10,000,000 property qualification be to us?

     Don't drive us from you; we are here and want to remain. God intended us to be here and He intends us to remain. Had it not been so we would have perished long ago. Before the onward tread of Anglo-Saxon civilization races have vanished more rapidly than extinction from shot and shell or bayonet. The New Zealander, Pacific Islander and American Indian have all gone to their grave; they were not able to withstand the environments of the Nineteenth Century civilization. No race,


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save the American negro, has been able to gaze into the blue eyes of the Anglo-Saxon for centuries and live. God so constructed us of better stamina. We have lived, increased and prospered. Remember, gentlemen, that might is not at all times right. Judge not the whole race by its criminals. All races have them, and the better element of us, as of you, abhor crime and do not wish to be called criminals because we have criminals in our race.

     The constitution that you frame shall live as an everlasting monument, not of stone or brass, nor Egyptian, to crumble and decay under the chemical changes of time, but shall stand out prominent above all other Alabama documents after death and the grave have claimed you. It shall live on after God has called you to rest. Inborn generations of negroes and whites shall look up to it after your flesh has been devoured by the earth-worm, your bones bleached in the tomb, and your soul given account for your earthly transit.

     Whether this monument will be one of honor or disgrace to the name of our fair State, to its citizens, both black and white, and to you, will depend upon your election.

                                                                                                                             Respectfully,

                                                                                                                                   Willis E. Sterrs, M. D.,

     Decatur, Alabama.

     MR. BURNS--(During the reading)--I rise for information. With all due respect to the gentleman from Morgan, I would like for him to inform the House how much longer that article is.

     MR. BLACKWELL--I will inform the gentleman from Dallas that I am not responsible for its length.

     THE PRESIDENT--Will the gentleman from Morgan inform the gentleman from Dallas?

     MR. BLACKWELL--There is one line more.

     MR. GREER (Calhoun)--I move that that petition be not recorded as a part of the official proceedings of this Convention.

      MR. JONES (Montgomery)--I think that the petition is long and rambling, but the right of petition is a very sacred right, and these people have not a representative on the floor of this Convention. I think it would be a bad precedent after allowing a communication, which is in the nature of a petition, to be read, not allow it to go upon our records, and therefore I hope that the motion will not prevail.

     MR. HOWELL--I move to lay the motion on the table, Mr. President.

     MR. REESE--I rise to a point of order.


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     MR. GREER--On that motion to table I call for the ayes and noes.

     THE PRESIDENT--The gentleman from Dallas rises to a point of order, and the gentleman will states the point of order.

     MR. REESE--The motion is out of order in the absence of a suspension of the rules. It ought to go to the Committee on Rules. The motion by the gentleman that it be excluded from the record should be referred to the Committee on Rules.

     THE PRESIDENT--In the opinion of the Chair the petition would be printed in the official proceedings of this body, whether referred or not referred; consequently the motion of the gentleman to exclude it from the official proceedings would be in order. The Chair will overrule the point of order.

     The question is on the motion of the gentleman from Cleburne, to lay upon the table the motion of the gentleman from Calhoun, to exclude this paper from the official proceedings of the Convention.

     MR. HEFLIN (Chambers)--I call for the ayes and noes upon that.

     THE PRESIDENT--And the question is shall the call be sustained.

     Twenty-six members rose, and the call was not sustained. A division was called for, and by a vote of 81 ayes to 18 noes, the motion was laid upon the table.

     MR. HOWELL--This Convention can very well afford to be be courteous to every citizen of the State--

     MR. GREER--I rise to a point of order. There is nothing before the Convention.

     MR. HOWELL--I got up, sir, to move that the communication be referred to the Committee on Suffrage and Elections.

     THE PRESIDENT--In the opinion of the Chair the point of order was well taken, but the gentleman states the object of his rising.

     MR. GREER--I withdraw the point, since the gentleman states the object of his rising.

     THE PRESIDENT--The motion is that it be referred to the Committee on Suffrage and Elections.

     MR. HOWELL--I desire to say we can very well afford to be courteous to every citizen, black or white, and as has been so well said by the gentleman from Montgomery, the right of petition


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is a very sacred right, and ought not by this Convention or any other body, Legislative or otherwise, to be treated with disrespect or want of courtesy.

     The petition was referred to the Committee on Suffrage and Elections.

     MR. BROWNE--I have a resolution.

     Resolution No. 160--Resolved, That that sympathy of this Convention be and the same is hereby extended to its worthy secretary, Frank N. Julian, in his sorrow and bereavement, in the death of his brother, William Julian.

     Mr. Reese endeavored to secure recognition.

     MR. BROWNE--I yield to the gentleman from Dallas.

     MR. REESE--I move a suspension of the rules for the purpose of putting the resolution upon its immediate passage, and I ask unanimous consent.

     There being no objection, the rules were suspended, and by a unanimous vote the resolution was adopted.

     Resolution No. 161, by Mr. Burns (Dallas).

     Resolved, That it is the sense of this Convention that what should not be done directly, should not be done indirectly, and after the rules have been suspended for any special purpose, amendments should not be in order.

     Referred to the Committee on Rules.

     Resolution No. 162, by Mr. Burns (Dallas):

     Resolved. That whenever a delegate precedes his motion to table with a speech, or at the close of a speech calls for the previous question, he shall be declared out of order.
.
     Referred to the Committee on Rules.

     Resolution No. 163, by Mr. Burns:

     Resolved, That it is the sense of this Convention that each and every officials of each and every district, municipality, county, circuit, division, from township trustees to chancellors, shall be elected by the qualified electors thereof, and that all State officers, including Railroad Commissioners and Convict Inspectors.

     Referred to Committee on Executive Department.

     MR. CARMICHAEL (Coffee)--I have a resolution.

     Resolution No. 164:


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     Be it resolved, That in the future petitions, memorials, etc., containing more than 100 words be referred without reading to the proper committees, and printed in the stenographic report.

     Referred to the Committee on Rules.

     MR. CASE-- I have a petition which I introduce by request.

     MR. CARMICHAEL (Coffee)--Will a motion to suspend the rules be in order?

     THE PRESIDENT--A motion will be in order.

     MR. CARMICHAEL (Coffee)--I move that the rules be suspended in order that the resolution I offered in regard to memorials and petitions may be put upon its passage. Much time is being consumed in this manner and it seems like the petitions and memorials increase daily, and the length of them also increases, and it costs about $7 a minute to run this convention, and we might save a little time on that line, and have a little more time for speech making perhaps.

     THE PRESIDENT--The Chair will examine the rule. The about to call the attention of the convention to the fact that the rule in reference to ordinances and resolution does not extend to petitions, as far as the recollection of the Chair goes.

     MR. CARMICHAEL (Coffee)--I was not aware of that Mr. President, and if that be the case I withdraw my resolution with the consent of the convention.

     THE PRESIDENT--The Chair will examine the rule. The Chair calls attention to rule forty-seven, which does not seem to refer to petitions. The rule does not require that petitions should be read at length unless the convention so desires it, and the Chair is inclined to rule that when a petition is presented, unless a motion is made that it be read, the secretary will not be directed to read it. A petition formally presented would be filed, and printed in the proceedings of the convention, but unless there is a motion that it be read before the convention, and referred to a committee, the Chair will direct the secretary not to do so.

     Does the Chair hear any motion with reference to the petition now offered.

     MR. REESE--I move that the President examine the paper and that it be referred to the proper committee and that it be printed in the proceedings.

     MR. CASE--I move that the petition be read.

     The motion was carried, and the petition read as follows:

     Petition 3, by Mr. Case:


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                                                                                                                            Collinsville, Ala., June 13, 1901.

To the Alabama Constitutional Convention, Montgomery, Alabama:

     Whereas under national interstate laws large trusts have and are being formed all over the country, with almost unlimited capital, and,

     Whereas the trust companies form without the State of Alabama commonly known as department stores, without contributing one cent in revenues towards the payment of the expenses of maintaining and supporting our State Government either in privilege or advalorem taxes, and flooding the State with circulars, catalogues and agents, plying their trade, advertising their goods, and supplying the consumers with many articles, same being actually delivered by the said agents and whereas the president merchants of this State are required to pay taxes before they can sell their goods, now therefore in consideration of the premises your petitioners respectfully pray that the delegates to the said Constitutional Convention of the State of Alabama examine into the merits of this momentus question to the end that some clause may be ingrafted in our State constitution, by which these non-resident trusts and department stores may be reached, and required to pay their prorata share of our State taxes, or upon their failure or refusal to do so, that they may be denied the privilege of delivering their goods, wares, and merchandise in the State of Alabama.

                                                                                                                           Halls Dry Goods Co.,
                                                                                                                           George W. Roberts,
                                                                                                                            B. A. Nowlin,
                                                                                                                            Pyron & Company,
                                                                                                                            M. G. A. Nicholson,
                                                                                                                            Nicholson Drug Co.,
                                                                                                                            H. P. McWharter,
                                                                                                                            R. A. Burt,
                                                                                                                            B. Keinan,
                                                                                                                            R. E. Roberts,
                                                                                                                            Charles Roberts & Co.,
                                                                                                                            George W. Keener,
                                                                                                                            R. S. Williams & Co.,
                                                                                                                            H. R. Jordan & Sons,
                                                                                                                            C. C. Jordan,
                                                                                                                            W. A. Wilburns Co.,
                                                                                                                             J. E. Gibson,
                                                                                                                             R. H. Smith.

     Referred to Committee on Taxation.


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     Ordinance 384, by Mr. Cofer:

     An ordinance to be entitled an ordinance to amend Section 25, of Article V I of the Constitution.

     Be it ordained by the people of the State of Alabama in convention assembled, that Section 25 of Article VI of the Constitution be amended so as to read as follows:

     Sec. 25. A solicitor of each judicial circuit of the State of Alabama shall be elected by the qualified voters of said circuits, who shall be learned in the law, and who shall at the time of his election and during his continuance in office, reside in the circuit for which he is elected and whose term of office shall be for four years.

     Provided that said election of said solicitors shall be had at the next general election held after the ratification of this constitution, and every four years thereafter.

     Provided further, That the General Assembly may fix and regulate the salary, or fees, of said solicitors.

     Provided all fees which may be by law taxed as solicitors fees against defendants on convictions secured by a solicitor who is paid a salary by the State belong to the State, and when collected must be paid into the State Treasury.

     Provided further, That the salary of said solicitor each shall not be fixed at greater sum than $2,000 per annum, and provided further that in no event shall the salary of said solicitors, exceed the earnings of said solicitors collected as fees, in their respective circuits.

     Provided further, That in the event said solicitors shall at any time fail to attend any term or day of term ; they are required by law to attend, they shall be required to furnish; or provide for the attendance of a deputy solicitor, and compensate him for his services, and all fees collected on account of the services rendered by said deputy on convictions shall be collected and paid into the State Treasury as the fees of solicitors are collected and paid into the treasury.

     Referred to Judiciary Committee.

     Ordinance No. 385, by Mr. Davis (Etowah):

     Be it ordained that Section 7 of Article XI. be amended by adding the following:

     And provided further, that this Section shall not apply to the town of Attalla, which town may levy and collect a tax not to exceed three tenths of 1 per centum in addition to the tax of one-half of 1 per centum now allowed to be levied and collected,


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such special tax to be applied exclusively to the payment of interest on bonds of the town of Attalla heretofore issued in pursuance of a law and for a sinking fund to pay the principal of said bonds. Such special tax to be levied and collected in the same mode and manner as taxes are now levied and collected by the town of Attalla.

     Provided: That this authority to levy and collect such special tax shall not go into effect and become operative until the funding arrangements now pending between the town of Attalla and the holders of its bonds, have been finally concluded.

     And provided, further, that this authority to levy such special tax shall remain in force and effect until such time when all of the bonds heretofore issued by said town of Attalla and as may upon the consumation of the pending adjustment remain outstanding, have been fully paid off and discharged both as to principal and interest, when the authority to levy this special tax above provided shall cease.

     Referred to Committee on Municipal Corporations.

     MR. deGRAFFENREID -- On yesterday I introduced an amendment to Section 13 of the report of the Committee on Executive Department. The caption of that amendment reads "amend Section thirteen by striking from the section all after the words `if any bill' in the eighteenth line thereof, and insert the following. By a casual ommission, Mr. President, that amendment does not do what I stated it did, and I thought it did, and I ask now to be allowed to make an amendment to make it right. Amend Section thirteen by striking from the Section all after the words "to reconsider it" in the fourth line, down to and including the word "respectfully" in the eighteenth line, and insert in lieu thereof the following, and here follows the amendment I offer.

     THE PRESIDENT--It seems to the Chair the amendment offered by the gentleman would be more properly in order when the matter comes up for consideration before the Convention.

     MR. deGRAFFENREID--That is all right, Mr. President. I did not notice the error until it was called to my attention this, morning.

     MR. OATES--I rise to a parliamentary inquiry.

     THE PRESIDENT--The gentleman will state the point of inquiry.

     MR. OATES--Several delegates are of the recollection that the entire roll was not called on Saturday, which I believe was the last day on which it was called--


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     THE CLERK--That is true.

     MR. OATES -- And that it is important to begin the call where it left off, and that it should now begin at A as the clerk began today.

     THE PRESIDENT--The Delegate is entirely correct, and the Chair was not aware that the roll call had not been continued from the point where it was left off.

     Ordinance No. 386, by Mr. Lomax:

     An ordinance relating to the government of the University, and the payment of the interest on the University fund.

     Be it ordained by the people of the State of Alabama in Convention assembled that after the ratification of this Constitution there shall be paid out of the Treasury of this State at the times and in the manner provided by law the sum of not less than $36,000 per annum as interest on the University fund, heretofore covered into the Treasury, for the maintenance and support of said institution.

     Be it further ordained, that the Trustees of said University may, at any time they deem it proper for the best interests of said university, abolish the military system at said institution or reduce the said system to a department of institution, and that such action on the part of said Trustees shall not decrease the amount of the annual interest payable out of the State Treasury for the maintenance and support of said institution.

     Referred to Committee on Education.

     MR. HARRISON--I call for the regular order.

     THE PRESIDENT--The hour of 11 has not yet arrived.

     MR. HARRISON--I see that the clock is at 11.

     THE PRESIDENT--The Chair has been listening and the clock has not yet struck.

     Ordinance 387, by Mr. Murphree:

     Be it ordained by the people of Alabama in Convention assembled, that the General Assembly of Alabama has authority and is hereby required to enact a law regulating the fees and allowances for service rendered in and about the administration and guardianship of small estates with a view to curtailing the expenses of same, which shall apply to the fees of the Probate Judge, Sherill and all other cost and charges attending said administrations and guardianships.

     Referred to Judiciary Committee.


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     MR. SLOAN--I ask unanimous consent to introduce a short resolution.

     THE PRESIDENT -- Is there any objection? The Chair hears none--

     MR. WADDELL--I call for the regular order.

     THE PRESIDENT--The gentleman is too late. The Chair called for objections.

     The resolution was read as follows:

     Resolution 165, by Mr. Sloan:

     Whereas on account of the limited time of three hours each day for the sitting of this Convention; and whereas it is impossible to accomplish any material work on the regular order in a session of one hour; therefore be it resolved, that when this Convention adjourns on Saturday it meet on Mondaysat 10 o'clock.

     Referred to Committee on Rules.

     THE PRESIDENT--The hour of 11 o'clock has arrived and the rules of this Convention require the call of the roll to be suspended.

     MR. GREER--I did not hear my name called. It was called so rapidly. It was a very short ordinance to introduce which I ask unanimous consent to be allowed to introduce.

     The consent was given, and the ordinance read as follows:

     Ordinance 388, by Mr. Greer of Calhoun:

     An ordinance to fix the date for the election of city officers in the State of Alabama.

     Be it ordained by the people of Alabama in Convention assembled, that the elections for municipal officers in the various towns and cities of the State shall hereafter be held each four years on the same day on which the general State election is held and the terms of the present incumbents are hereby extended or
abridged as the case may be so as to terminate on the first day of the calendar month following the next general State election; city officers elected at the first election after the ratification of the Constitution shall hold office for four years, their terms to begin on the first day of the calendar month following the election.

     Referred to Committee on Municipal Corporations.

     MR. HARRISON--I ask unanimous consent to introduce a very short resolution.


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     MR. JONES (Montgomery)--I do not object now, but I do give notice that I will object to the next ordinance that is offered under a suspension of the rules this morning.

     The leave was given, and the resolution read as follows:

     Resolution 166, by Mr. Harrison:

     Resolved, that all speeches on amendments and ordinances reported by Standing Committees be limited to five minutes each.

     Referred to Committee on Rules.

     MR. DUKE--I was just about to move to suspend the rules and put that resolution upon its passage. I desire to make that motion.

     THE PRESIDENT--The resolution has already been referred, unless the gentleman recalls it.

     The regular order was here called for.

     THE PRESIDENT--The regular order is the consideration of the report of the Committee on Executive Department. And the pending question is the motion of the gentleman from Jefferson to refer Section 13 with instructions back to the committee. The gentleman from Montgomery has the floor. The gentleman from Hale indicated a desire to amend a resolution which he offered, and which is a part of the matter before the Convention for discussion.

     MR. JONES (Montgomery)--I yield for that purpose.

     MR. deGRAFFENREID--By a casual omission, the caption of the amendment does not state what it was intended that it should. I therefore ask that I be allowed to amend the caption. It is in writing, and it can be read.

     The amendment was read as follows:

     "Amend Section 13 by striking from the section all after the words "to reconsider it" in the fourth line, down to and including the word "respectively," in the eighteenth line, and insert in lieu thereof the following, "every bill, etc."

     MR. JONES (Montgomery)--Mr. President, as briefly--

     THE PRESIDENT--The gentleman from Hale (deGraffenreid) has indicated a desire to amend a resolution which was offered, and which is a part--

     MR. JONES--I yield the floor for that purpose only.

     MR. deGRAFFENREID -- By casual omission, the amendment does not speak what it was intended to speak. It is in writing, and I, therefore, ask that the caption be read.


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     THE PRESIDENT -- The gentleman from Hale asks to amend the caption of the amendment offered by him on yesterday. The Secretary will read the proposed amendment.

     The Secretary read as follows: Amend Section 13 by striking from the section all after the words "to reconsider it," in the fourth line, down to and including the words "respectively," in the eighth line, and insert in lieu thereof the following:

     MR. JONES (Montgomery)--Mr. President, as briefly as I may, in behalf of the committee, I will touch upon the objections made to the section, which are practically involved in the motion to recommit, and then allow others to debate these amendments. Really, there is but one proposition before the Convention, though it is sub-divided into two by the motion to recommit, and that is the objection to allowing the Governor to suggest amendments. My distinguished friend from Jefferson (Mr. Lowe), speaking upon this question, said, "it seeks to break down the walls that stand between the executive and legislative," and in another place he says "this is a strange innovation, totally foreign to anything we have known before," and in another place it is characterized as the "most radical proposition that has ever come before this Convention, and I hope the most extreme that will at any time be submitted to it." As I heard his words, I wondered if our committee unconsciously was so unsophisticated, and so unfamiliar with the frame work of our Constitution, that in making this simple proposition, we were "breaking down the walls between the legislative and the executive" and introducing into this house some startling anomaly, foreign to the spirit of our institution. Why, Mr. President, the Constitution makes it the duty of the Governor to recommend legislation. He can do it in a general message, or in a special message; he can do it in conference with committees, or he can do it in conference with the members. Furthermore, the Constitution makes him a powerful member of the Legislature in the matter of voting. He cannot vote until after the two houses have acted, and then the Constitution declares he is so influential a member that he is equal to fifty mernbers in the House and sixteen in the Senate. In the eye of the Constitution, he outweighs half of the legislators, in all legislation. Then, Mr. President, where is there anything startling or strange in this proposition?

     The next question is, can it serve any useful purpose? Every one acquainted with legislation, especially in latter days, knows in the hurry which seems to be a necessity when so much legislation is before the houses, that there are innumerable slips in bills. Sometimes the author says what he does not mean; sometimes he overlooks some good provision in other laws, which he does not wish to destroy, but in fact he repealed; sometimes accidentally he runs counter to some provisions in the Constitution of the State. It is highly proper in these cases that the Executive should


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have an opportunity to get these matters corrected, without putting the General Assembly in the attitude of passing the bill as it is, or letting it die. I will not enlarge any further on these considerations, except by illustrating some cases in my own experience, which I believe is the experience of every one who deals with legislation. Here is a bill which was vetoed: "To amend the charter of Ft. Payne, in DeKalb County." Why? Because, inadvertently, the draftsman had said that a citizen in DeKalb County should live in his ward twelve months, to qualify him as a voter, when the Constitution limited it to three months. The Governor, very reluctantly, was compelled to send the bill back. Would it have been any invasion of the province of the General Assembly of any reflection upon its independence, if he had said: "Gentlemen, strike out that section, make the bill conform to the Constitution, and send it back to me and I will approve it. He could not say that and the Legislature could not do that. The result was that the universal desire of the people of that town to change their city government was for the time being defeated, really by a slip of the author of the bill, who had overlooked a provision in the Constitution.

     Now here is another case, Mr. President: It is a bill "To incorporate Lineville College, in Clay County, Alabama." The citizens there were anxious to have a good college. The bill provided that the school fund and poll tax in the district should go to the children who attended it, and a wise bill was framed to that end. In the hurry of legislation, the draftsman put one little provision in it which poisoned it in the mind of the Governor, and that was in effect that the Board of Trustees of this public school, supported largely by public money, should control it independent of the supervision of the State Superintendent, and might put an incidental fee there of three dollars. In the opinion of the Governor, these two provisions vitiated the bill, and he sent it back. If the General Assembly could have amended it by striking that one section out, they would have had that college one year earlier. As it was, it was too late to pass a new bill, and the members were compelled to let the bill die, because they could not amend it, and could not pass it over the veto.

     Another case, Mr. President. In the hurry of engrossing bills--in an enacting clause, the words "General Assembly of Alabama." were left out and the bill read, "Be it enacted," without saying by whom. That was fatal to it. The Governor was compelled to veto it. The bill related to hiring out of convicts. There was not a member of either house who would not have been glad of the opportunity, if he could have done it, to amend the bill, by putting in the words "General Assembly of Alabama," and sending it back for the Governor's approval. There is no danger, Mr. President that the Executive will veto bills for the fun of it, or to display arbitrary power. The truth is, where we scrutinize


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legislation, we have too few vetoes, rather than too many vetoes. The power and dignity of the Legislature is not touched, by the provisions suggested. The Governor simply sends the bill back with a suggestion, and says to them: "Gentlemen, either pass it over my veto, or amend it and put it in shape, and we will try and enact it into law. I don't wish to disappoint your purposes."

     MR. HARRISON (Lee) -- May I ask the gentleman a question?

     MR. JONES--Certainly.

     MR. HARRISON--Wouldn't the very Act to which you refer have been accomplished by a recall of the bill from the Governor; wouldn't it have been just as well to have the House creating the bill, recall it?

     MR. JONES--Unquestionably it might; but there are times, and I have known them to happen, when the Governor would send to some member of the House and ask him to recall a bill, and he would say: "No, it is not a matter of my special concern. I have some friends who voted for it. I don't want to antagonize them and we will let it alone, and you can tussle with it." But suppose that plan is feasible, Mr. President, where is the harm of allowing this man, who is elected by a million and three-quarters of people, and who is as much a representative of the people as any man on the floor of either House, to say, publicly, what he often does privately, Gentlemen, I have a difference with you. I submit it to you; I don't wish to put you in the attitude either of passing the bill as it is, or of letting it die. I propose an amendment, by which we can agree, which is practicable. It is a plain, good old-fashioned, neighborly way of doing things. These were the reasons why we thought it would be a wise plan in practice to incorporate in the Constitution. Individually and as the organ of this committee, I am very averse to doing anything which looks like cutting off debate, and I won't do it. In order, however, that this matter may be put in shape before the House, I shall move the previous question on the resolution to recommit; and then, if that is voted down, the house can take up these amendments, and we can put the section in shape. If the house does not agree with the committee and makes any change in the amendments, which cannot properly be put in shape on the floor, thus necessitating recommittal, the committee will do the best it can with the section after it is referred. It seems to me it would be utterly useless to recommit when the house has not discussed the question and has made no decision. I, therefore, move the previous question on the motion to recommit. If that is voted down, then we will pass on the merits.

     THE PRESIDENT -- The gentleman from Montgomery moves the previous question, on the motion to recommit the section


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and amendments to the Committee on Executive Department. The question is shall the main question be now put.

     Upon a vote being taken the main question was ordered.

     THE PRESIDENT--The question recurs on the motion of the gentleman from Jefferson, to recommit the section with the pending amendments back to the Committee on Executive Department.

     MR. HARRISON--I believe that the motion contains some instructions. I would like to have it read.

     THE PRESIDENT--The instructions, if the Chair can state them from memory, are that the Committee shall eliminate that portion of the section which authorizes the Executive to suggest amendments. Does that meet the inquiry?

     MR. HARRISON--That is satisfactory.

     On motion to recommit, a division was called for, and by a vote of twenty-four ayes to seventy-eight noes, the Convention refused to recommit.

     THE PRESIDENT--The question recurs on the amendment to the amendment offered by the gentleman from Hale.

     MR. MURPHREE--Am I in order to offer a substitute?

     THE PRESIDENT--There is now pending an amendment to an amendment.

     MR. MURPHREE--I want to offer a substitute for the report of the Committee on Executive Department, and the amendment thereto, that is as to section thirteen.

     MR. FITTS--Want to substitute for the whole section?

     MR. MURPHREE--For the whole section.

     THE PRESIDENT--It seems to the Chair until the amendment proposed by the gentleman from Hale is disposed of, further amendments will not be in order.

     MR. MURPHREE--I think this would be a better plan than that of the gentleman from Hale, and would meet the approbation of the House.

     THE PRESIDENT--The limit, under the rule of amendments, seems to be reached when an amendment to an amendment is proposed, and until the Convention disposes of that amendment, further amendments in the opinion of the Chair would not be in order.

     MR. OATES--Mr. President, the proposition as I understand it is broad enough to cover all. While of course the substitute


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is in the nature of an amendment, where it is offered as a substitute for all that is pending, though there be an amendment, and an amendment to an amendment, I think it is in order always, where it is a substitute for all the propositions together not an amendment to an amendment, but it is a substitute for all that is pending.

     THE PRESIDENT--The Chair understands the proposition to substitute is simply a form of an amendment, and while there is an amendment pending to the section, and an amendment to that amendment, it is not in order to offer further amendments, although the gentleman can offer his amendment at a later stage, after the Convention has disposed of the pending amendments. The chair would rule, therefore, that the amendment offered by the gentleman from Pike, is not in order at this time. The question is on the amendment to the amendment offered by the gentleman from Hale.

     MR. HOWZE--I rise to a point of inquiry.

     THE PRESIDENT--The gentleman will state the question of inquiry.

     MR. HOWZE--To what amendment is the amendment of the gentleman from Hale a substitute or amendment?

     THE PRESIDENT--It is an amendment to his own amendment.

     MR. HOWZE--I would like to have the original amendment read then.

     THE PRESIDENT--Will the Convention please give attention to the reading of the amendments, in order that we may consume as little time as possible? The original amendment has been published.

     MR. deGRAFFENREID--Yes, sir; it is published and in today's paper, and on the desks of the members.

     MR. HOWZE--I withdraw the request. I did not know that the amendment had been printed.

     The question was put upon the amendment offered by the gentleman from Hale to the amendment offered on yesterday, and a vote being taken the amendment was lost.

     MR. COBB--I desire to ask if it would now be in order to offer an amendment to the amendment?

     THE PRESIDENT--It would be in order, and the chair will recognize the gentleman from Pike.

     Substitute offered by Mr. Murphree of Pike:


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     "Substitute for the report of the Committee on Executive Department, and amendments thereto, as follows: That section 13 of Article V of the Constitution of 1875 be adopted in full, with the addition, that the Governor may approve bills within ten days after final adjournment, if approved and deposited with the Secretary of State within the time."

     MR. deGRAFFENREID -- That is identically the same as this amendment that I offered, Mr. President.

     THE PRESIDENT--The question is on the substitute offered by the gentleman from Pike.

     MR. LOMAX--I rise for the purpose of making a parliamentary inquiry.

     THE PRESIDENT--The gentleman will state the inquiry.

     MR. LOMAX--As I understood it, the gentleman from Hale on yesterday offered an amendment to this section, and today he offered an amendment to his amendment. Now the question I understood the chair to put was the question of the adoption of the amendment offered by the gentleman from Hale to his own amendment. Does that leave the original amendment of the gentleman from Hale before the Convention?

     THE PRESIDENT--It was the question before the Convention until the gentleman from Pike offered a substitute for the amendment and the original section.

     MR. LOMAX--There has been no vote upon the amendment offered by the gentleman from Hale, and I wanted to know if that was still under consideration by the Convention.

     THE PRESIDENT--That was the pending question until the gentleman from Pike moved a substitute to the amendment and section thirteen, and that is the pending question at this time.

     MR. HARRISON--A point of inquiry. In entertaining the motion of the delegate from Pike, which goes to the entire Section, some of us would like to vote for a less number of days than ten. If that substitute is adopted will it cut us off from amending it? In other words, I inquire, without raising the point of order directly, if this substitute is germain to the pending amendment offered by the gentleman from Hale?

     THE PRESIDENT--It seems to the Chair that it is. It is offered as a substitute for the pending amendment and Section 13.

     MR. BROOKS--I call for the reading of the substitute.

     The substitute of Mr. Murphree of Pike, was again read.

     MR. COBB--I rise to a point of inquiry.


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     THE PRESIDENT--The gentleman will state the inquiry.

     MR. COBB--If this substitute is adopted, is it amendable. Is that all, or what disposition is made of the amendment offered by the gentleman from Hale? What disposition will be made with reference to the other amendments here, in the event of the adoption of the substitute for the amendment?

     THE PRESIDENT--It seems to the Chair that it would be amendable. The question will recur upon the adoption of the original section as amended.

     MR. HARRISON--Would it not be the action of the Convention, if, for instance, they fix that at ten days, and it would take a motion to reconsider it? While I am in sympathy with the general spirit of the substitute offered by the gentleman from Pike, I prefer to retain the same time,- say that the Governor shall have six days. I am opposed to the ten days, but if I should vote for the substitute, I apprehend we would have no opportunity to amend it, if the Convention adopts it with that language in it.

     MR. JONES (Montgomery)--I desire to make a proposition for the purpose of saving time, which I think will get at a square vote on all the points on which we differ, and I will state what they are, and then I will make the motion. If we have a motion that is the sense of this Convention that the Governor be not authorized to suggest amendments, and that passes, then that ends the whole matter, and then the article can go back to the Committee to be put in shape.

     THE PRESIDENT--The question before the Convention is the substitute offered by the gentleman from Pike to the amendment, and to the Section.

     MR. JONES--I rise to a point of order against that. The length of time that the Governor has after the adjournment of the General Assembly has already been decided by this Convention,--that is, at ten days,--and the only way to reach that would be to move to reconsider it.

     THE PRESIDENT--The Chair will overrule that point of order.

     MR. MURPHREE--It seems that several members want me to change my substitute to six days, and therefore I will make that change.

     THE PRESIDENT--Objection is made, and the substitute cannot be further amended at this time.

     MR. BROOKS--In order that the Convention may have a clear idea of what they are voting upon, I ask that the amendment offered by the gentleman from Hale, for which this substitute is offered, be read.


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     The amendment was read as follows:

     "Amend Section 13 by striking from the Section all after 'if any bill' in the eighteenth line thereof, and insert in lieu thereof the following: `Every bill which shall have passed both Houses of the General Assembly shall be presented to the Governor. If he approves he shall sign it, but if not, he shall return it to the House in which it shall have originated, which shall enter the objections at large upon the Journal and the House to which the bill shall be returned shall proceed to reconsider it. If, after such reconsideration, a majority of the whole number elected to that House shall vote for the passage of such bill, it shall be sent with objections to the other House, by which it shall likewise be reconsidered, and if approved by a majority of the whole number elected to that House, it shall become a law, but in such cases the votes of both Houses shall be determined by yeas and nays, and the names of the members voting for or against the bill shall be entered upon the Journals of each House respectively."

     MR. BROOKS--Now I rise to a point of order.

     MR. JONES--If the gentleman will allow me, I think I can get him out of some trouble.

     THE PRESIDENT--The gentleman from Mobile has the floor.

     MR. BROOKS--I make this point of order, Mr. President. Whenever an amendment is proposed, it must be disposed of as a substantive proposition by the Convention, before we can proceed to another amendment, and the way to dispose of that is in one of three days: you can either amend by striking out words from the amendment, or by inserting or adding to it, or by striking out and inserting. But you cannot offer an amendment to an amendment, by putting in something else that is not germain to the subject matter before the House. Now the subject matter of the substitute offered by the gentleman from Pike simply re-enacts, or re-adopts the subject upon which this amendment is pending--

     MR. O'NEAL--It simply adopts the Committee's report.

     MR. BROOKS--It simply adopts the Committee report, and--

     MR. WILLETT--I rise to a point of order.

     THE PRESIDENT--The gentleman from Mobile has the floor.

     MR. WILLETT--Under the rules a point of order cannot be argued.

     MR. BROOKS--I believe it is in the power of the House to hear the reasons for the point of order.


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     THE PRESIDENT--The gentleman will state his point of order. He had not conclude his statement of the point of order.

     MR. BROOKS--I simply wanted to state that the point of order is that an amendment as a substantive and distinctive proposition must be disposed of in one of the ways I have referred to, and you cannot dispose of it by jumping over it and taking up something which is not germain to the proposition. Now, if an original proposition can have an amendment pending on it, and somebody else can move an amendment to that, by adopting the original proposition why we would never get a vote on the amendment itself. That is simply going back, and backing and filling. If I understand the parliamentary rule right, I think it is laid down as a fundamental principle that the amendment must be disposed of in one of the three ways I have spoken of, and you cannot in an amendment to an amendment incorporate matters that are not germain to it.

     Now, if you will allow me one moment: if that amendment is put to the House and defeated, then it would be in order to move another amendment to the Section, which might incorporate that very thing that is defeated, if it has certain matters added to it, in which the coherency of the two is established. I think that the point of order is well taken and that the substitute is out of order.

     Mr. Jones (Montgomery) sought recognition.

     THE PRESIDENT--Does the gentleman desire to rise to the point of order made by the gentleman from Mobile?

     MR. JONES (Montgomery)--I want to offer a proposition that we could get rid of, by unanimous consent--

     THE PRESIDENT--The question will be on the point of order made by the gentleman from Mobile.

     MR. JONES (Montgomery)--Will the gentleman withdraw it, and we will get that amendment out of the way in fifteen seconds, by consent of the mover--

     MR. deGRAFFENREID--No, we cannot.

     MR. JONES (Montgomery)--I understood that we could.

     THE PRESIDENT--In the opinion of the Chair the propositions to save time generally result in consuming time, and we had probably better proceed regularly, and dispose of motions in their order.

     In reference to the point of order made by the gentleman from Mobile, the Chair will say that if is the same point of order made last week. The point made by the gentleman from Mobile is that an amendment to an amendment must be confined strictly


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to the matter contained in the amendment. In ruling on that point last week, the Chair was in doubt, but the chair , will adhere to the same ruling now that was made then and will overrule the point of order. Is the Convention ready for the question on the substitute offered by the gentleman from Pike?

     MR. deGRAFFENREID--I want to be heard on the question.

     I think that the gentleman intends, so far as possible, that the law shall remain in the Constitution about to be adopted as it now exists in the Constitution, with the single exception that the Governor shall some time after the adjournment of the General Assembly within which to approve bills.

     Some objection is made as to the length of time proposed by the gentleman, within which bills can be approved by the Governor after the adjournment of the Legislature. In other words, Mr. President, so far as I have been able to ascertain, the only objection that has been made to Section 13, as reported by the committee, is the power that is conferred upon the Governor to recommend amendments to bills,. which are presented to him for signature, upon the idea that temptation would be presented to the Governor to veto bills and return them for amendment, when the bill, but for the fact that the Governor could recommend a change, would receive his approval.

     Now the amendment that is proposed by me, and printed in the proceedings of yesterday, simply eliminates from this report of the committee that one objectionable feature and that only, leaving the law just as it stands with the following addition, and if the members will read the amendment proposed by me, they will find that the amendment is simply Section 13 of the present Constitution of the State of Alabama, and added to Section 13 would be the following, in addition to the section as it now stands, and this would be the change which the amendment by me would make in the law: "if any bill shall not be returned by the Governor, Sundays excepted, within six days after it shall have been presented, the same shall become a law in like manner as though he had signed it, unless the General Assembly by their adjournment or recess prevent its return, in which case it shall not be a law; but bills presented to the Governor within five days before the adjournment of the General Assembly may be approved by the Governor at any time within ten days after the final adjournment, if approved and deposited with the Secretary of State within that time. Every vote, order or resolution to which concurrence of both Houses may be necessary, except questions of adjournment, and bringing on of elections by the two Houses, and amending this Constitution, shall be presented to the Governor; and before the same shall take effect be approved by him, or being disapproved, shall be passed by both Houses, according to the rules and limitations prescribed in the case of a bill."


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     Now, as I said, the only change that is made if the amendment which was offered by me on yesterday is adopted, will be the power in the Governor to approve a bill after the adjournment of the House. That matter was discussed, and I do not deem it necessary to discuss it further. It would seem that the Governor should have power to give life to that which has been expressed to be the will of the people, after the adjournment of the General Assembly, if he has not had time to sign it before; but it would also seem that it would not be wise to lodge with the Governor the power, whenever a bill was presented to him, to propose an amendment, because of the temptation that would exist to offer amendments to almost every bill that would be brought to him for approval, especially in the light of the fact that the State of Alabama, with only about eight other States in the Union, has the provision in its Constitution that a majority of the members elected to the General Assembly can pass bills over the Governor's veto, instead of the ordinary two-thirds vote required in the Constitutions of most of the States, and of the United States.

     MR. OATES--I want to ask the gentleman from Hale a question.

     MR. deGRAFFENREID--Yes sir.

     MR. OATES--I think you omitted to state one thing. It is in the present Constitution that the Governor may sign bills within five days, instead of six. That is a difference of only one day.

     MR. deGRAFFENREID--Yes sir.

     MR. PILLANS--As your amendment reads, leaving the first eighteen lines in do you not leave the entire text of the report insofar as it provides for vetoing a bill with amendments?

     MR. deGRAFFENREID--It was not intended to.

     MR. PILLANS--I think it was not intended to, but I think the amendment does do that.

     MR. deGRAFFENREID--I asked leave this morning to amend, and the President put the question to the House as to whether or not the amendment that I offered should be adopted. I thought it had been agreed to. Your point is well taken, unless the amendment that I offered this morning is adopted by the House, and I now ask leave of the House to so change this amendment offered by me on yesterday, as that it shall read--

     MR. SAMFORD--Mr. President I would object--

     MR. PRESIDENT--The Chair would rule that further amendments cannot be entertained until the substitute offered by the gentleman from Pike is disposed of. That is in the nature of an amendment to the amendment offered by the gentleman from Hale.


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     MR. FITTS-- However the matter is regarded, as it now stands; and in whatever technical shape it stands, and whether the gentleman be allowed to go back and strike out other words or not, the whole question, as it is before this Convention now, is substantially the same question which was raised by the gentleman from Jefferson on Saturday afternoon, and upon which the House has voted and sustained the committee. Now, the sense of the Convention having been once ascertained on this matter, and the committee having been sustained, it does seem to us that we might be allowed to pass upon this section as reported by the committee, and go on to other sections of this report. The committee is not loathe to have this report torn to pieces, or to have its report amended, and the Convention has enjoyed that privilege to the full; but the committee does feel that when substantially the same point has been raised and passed upon, that we in turn might enjoy the pleasure of having the section approved, and proceed to test the merit of another. Now the whole point raised is exactly the same as the point raised by the gentleman from Jefferson. He raised the objection that is now being urged that the Governor ought not to be allowed to suggest amendments to legislation that has been passed, and sent to the executive office for approval.

     Now, Mr. President, something has been said about temptations, something has been said about danger. There is no danger in this matter; there is no danger that will beset the Governor; and there is no breaking down, or striking down of ancient landmarks as has been said. The Governor has the right to veto the measure now. The only difference is if he vetoes it, he has to send it back to the House in which it originated, with his veto, and the question then becomes the bare, naked question, of whether or not the legislation shall pass notwithstanding the veto of the Governor.

     Now, when he has the power to veto, so as to require a full majority of both Houses to overcome the veto, where is there any temptation? Where is there any striding over the difference between the co-ordinate departments of the government, when we say in the Constitution, that instead of the right of vetoing the legislation that is passed he may simply point out wherein there has been some error, or some technical mishap to the bill, and send it back with the suggestion that with that simple amendment it will meet with his approval.

     At least, it is simply a difference of practice. If this is put in the Constitution, he can do that with the simple machinery that is provided. He can do it now as has been suggested, by sending for members of the legislature to come down to go through tedious machinery of recalling the legislation by a resolution which consumes time, and reconsidering it, in order to meet suggestions which he makes in a semi-official manner. What harm can be


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done? What temptation besieges him? The word temptation has been used; to strike down ancient land-marks, has ben used. Is there any objection to this machinery, instead of the other? Now the Committee feels that it gave very serious consideration to this matter. The Committee debated it very thoroughly and conscientiously and it seems to them that it provides the best and simplest means for him to make known in a public manner, and not in a quasi-private manner, any technical objection which occurs to him in connection with bills that have passed, and it seems to the Committee that it does not make any dangerous stride to do away with any of the distinctions in the departments of the government, and it further seems to the Committee, gentleman of the Convention, that this is identically the same question, garbed in another way, and dressed in another fashion, as that suggested by the gentleman from Jefferson on Saturday afternoon, and this morning passed upon by the Convention favorably to the report of the Committee. That being the status of the matter, Mr. President, I move that the amendment be laid upon the table, and upon that I call the previous question.

     MR. COLEMAN of Greene - Mr. President

     MR. FITTS - I withdraw my motion for Judge Coleman.

     MR. COLEMAN (Greene) - Mr. President it seems to me that the vote in favor of the motion of the Chairman of the Committee that this section be not re-committed, was not an endorsement of the objectionable features which occur to some of us in this section, but was an indication on the part of the delegates of the Convention that they themselves would proceed at once to amend the section as they desired, instead of being subjected to the delay that would ensue from a recommittal. The delegate from Hale offered an amendment which did not meet the ends desired, in the hasty preparation of the amendment, and that was voted down. The gentleman from Pike has offered an amendment which he calls a substitute, which covers the ground intended by the delegate from Hale and which, in my opinion, the delegates of the Convention are prepared to vote upon.

     MR. WILSON (Washington) - I move the previous question on the substitute.

     The main question was ordered, and a division being called for, the substitute offered by Mr. Murphree of Pike, was lost by a vote of sixty-six ayes to twenty-seven noes.

     MR. SAMFORD - I move to lay the amendment of the gentleman from Hale on the table.

     The motion to table was put, and a division being called for resulted in a vote of sixty-eight ayes and thirty-nine noes, so the amendment was laid on the table.


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     MR. FITTS--I now move the adoption of section thirteen as reported by the Committee, and on that I move the previous question.

     MR. O'NEAL--I rise to a point of order. There is still an amendment pending before the House.

     THE PRESIDENT--The chair will entertain the point of order as soon as the motion of the gentleman from Tuscaloosa is stated. The gentleman from Tuscaloosa now moves the adoption of the section as reported by the Committee, and upon that moves the previous question. The gentleman from Lauderdale rises to a point of order. The gentleman will state the point of order.

     MR. O'NEAL (Lauderdale)--The point of order is this. The gentleman from Hale introduced an amendment, which has not been acted on by the Convention. That amendment was to the effect--

     THE PRESIDENT--The chair will state for the benefit of the gentleman that the amendment was laid upon the table.

     MR. O'NEAL (Lauderdale)--No, it has not been acted on.

     MR. deGRAFFENREID--There is another one.

     MR. O'NEAL (Lauderdale)--I wish to call the attention of the Convention and the Committee to the fact there is nothing in this section thirteen which authorizes the Houses to pass it over his veto. The only provision in this section is a veto where the Governor proposes an amendment, and the amendment offered by the gentleman from Hale was to remove that defect. As the section now stands, there is absolutely no provision for action on the part of the House after the Governor vetoes a bill.

     MR. LOMAX--Will the gentleman from Lauderdale allow me to call his attention to the language of the first part of the section. I think it remedies the defect which he thinks exists.

     MR. O'NEAL--Certainly.

     MR. LOMAX--The language of the first five lines is as follows :

     Sec. 13--Every bill which shall have passed both Houses of the General Assembly shall be presented to the Governor; if he approve, he shall sign it; but if not, he shall return it with his objections to that House in which it shall have originated, who shall enter the objections at large upon the journal and proceed to reconsider it.

     MR. O'NEAL--That is in the language of the Code but here is what follows: "If after such reconsideration a majority of the whole number elected to that House shall vote for the passage of the bill it shall be sent with the objections to the other House


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and if approved by a majority of the whole number elected to that House, it shall become a law." That is entirely omitted from this section, and the next paragraph proceeds in reference to the proposed amendments of the Governor so that the committee has entirely failed to provide any means by which the House can act on a veto where the Governor absolutely vetoes a bill.

     MR. JONES (Montgomery)--I do not wish to take up much time but I feel that I ought to say a word on that.

     THE PRESIDENT--The gentleman from Tuscaloosa moved the adoption of the section as reported by the committee and upon that demanded the previous question and the question before the Convention is shall the main question be put, and that question is not debatable.

     MR. JONES (Montgomery)--I thought there was an amendment which the Chair held was being discussed.

     THE PRESIDENT--If there is a pending amendment, the Chair is not advised of it.

     MR. deGRAFFENREID--There was one introduced Saturday and it has never been acted on.

     THE PRESIDENT--The Chair fails to recollect that the gentleman has introduced three amendments, the recollection of the Chair is that he introduced two and both of these amendments have been laid on the table by the Convention.

     MR. deGRAFFENREID--On Saturday I introduced a resolution which was read and which has never been acted upon by the House and the records will disclose it. The amendment was introduced to meet an objection which has been pointed out by the gentleman from Lauderdale and it has been among the papers of the Clerk and has not been touched upon by the House.

     THE PRESIDENT--The Secretary will read the amendment.

     The amendment was read as follows

     Amend Section 13 by adding after the words to reconsider it in the fourth line, the following

     "If the Governor's message proposes no amendment which would remove his objection to the bill, the House in which the bill originated may proceed to reconsider and if a majority of the whole number elected to that House vote for the passage of the bill, the bill shall be sent to the other House, which shall in like manner, reconsider, and if a majority of the whole number elected to that House vote for the passage of the bill the same shall become a law notwithstanding the Governor's veto."


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     THE PRESIDENT--The Chair understands that the gentleman from Tuscaloosa moved for the previous question upon the section and amendments.

     MR. JONES--And on that as Chairman of the committee have the right to conclude.

     THE PRESIDENT--After the previous question is ordered.

     MR. JENKINS--I trust that the gentleman from Tuscaloosa will withdraw that. I want to offer a substitute.

     THE PRESIDENT--The gentleman does not withdraw the motion and the question is shall the main question be now put.

     MR. JENKINS--I rise to a point of order, that is this body there is nothing in our rules calling for the previous question and it is out of order.

     THE PRESIDENT--The point of order is overruled.

     MR. REESE--Is the main question upon the amendment offered by the gentleman from Hale?

     THE PRESIDENT--The main question will be upon that amendment.

     MR. REESE--Then will not the gentleman from Hale have the right to conclude the debate on that if the main question is ordered.

     THE PRESIDENT--On that amendment the gentleman from Hale will have the right to conclude.

     A vote being taken the main question was ordered.

     MR. deGRAFFENREID--The reason for the introduction of that amendment was because there is nothing in Section 13 which provides for the passage of a bill over the Governor's veto which is returned to the House by the Governor without any proposed amendments. It is stated by the Chairman of the Committee on Executive Department that Section 13 does contain such a provision, but it seems to me, as we are adopting a Constitution for a government of the people, that it should be so plain that no person can question the construction intended to be placed upon it. It has only been a moment ago when a distinguished lawyer who was at one time United States District Attorney, stated to this House in his position as delegate here, that there is no provision in this Section 13 which provides for the passage of a bill over the Governor's veto where the bill is returned to the House without a proposition from the Governor that it should be amended.

     MR. JONES (Montgomery)--Will my friend from Hale allow me to give him briefly what is in this section?


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     MR. deGRAFFENREID--Yes, sir.

     MR. JONES (Montgomery)--The section provides when he sends a bill back if that House acts on it it is send back, but if either of the Houses refuse to act on the amendments then the House in which the refusal takes place goes ahead with the bill, as in the case of veto, and it goes through both Houses and the section says in that event it shall become a law. I am afraid my friends have not examined the Section as closely as they may wish it to appear.

     MR. deGRAFFENREID--Here is one Section which is omitted from this Section of the report of the Committee. I ask that the House follow me carefully. This is what is in the old Constitution:

     Every bill which shall have passed both houses of the General Assembly shall be presented to the Governor; if he approve, he shall sign it; but if not, he shall return it with his objections to that House in which it shall have originated.

     Now that is in the old Constitution.

     Who shall enter the objections at large upon the Journal and proceed to reconsider it.

     Now upon this point Section 13 now under consideration is the same as Section 13 in the old Constitution. There Section 13 in this report departs from the old Constitution. The old Constitution says after that: "If after such reconsideration a majority of the whole number elected to that House shall vote for the passage of such bill, it shall be sent to the other House by which it shall likewise be reconsidered. If approved by a majority of the whole number elected to that House it shall become a law, but in such cases the votes of both Houses shall be determined by yeas and nays." That is left out of Section 13 in this report which it is proposed we shall now adopt.

     MR. JONES (Montgomery)--It is put in another place.

     MR. deGRAFFENREID--That is what the gentleman undertakes to say by construction, but we are making a Constitution, and trying to be plain so that everybody may know what it means and so that courts will not be called on to construe doubtful questions. If you will read Section 13, after the point where I have stopped, you will see that it begins to discuss an entirely new question, namely, the consideration of bills that are returned to the General Assembly by the Governor with proposed amendments.

     MR. JONES (Montgomery)--In order to save time in deference to my friend, if the House will allow it, although we do not think it necessary, we will accept his amendment.


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     THE PRESIDENT--The Chairman of the Committee on Executive Department indicates that the Committee is willing to accept the amendment of the delegate from Hale. The question is now on that amendment.

     A vote being taken, the amendment was adopted.

     THE PRESIDENT--The question is on the adoption of the Section as amended.

     MR. FITTS--And on that I move the previous question.

     MR. O'NEAL--I desire to offer an amendment. I don't think it is fair that we should be cut off.

     THE PRESIDENT--The Chair recognized one of the gentlemen in charge of the bill?the gentleman from Tuscaloosa--and his motion was to adopt the section as amended, and upon that the previous question was called.

     A vote being taken, the main question was ordered.

     MR. MAC A. SMITH--I offer an amendment.

     THE PRESIDENT--The amendment is not in order. The main question was ordered.

     MR. SMITH--Then I move a reconsideration of the vote by which the main question was ordered so that I can offer this amendment.

     THE PRESIDENT--Without a suspension of the rules the further consideration of that motion would go over until tomorrow.

     MR. SMITH--Then I move that the rules be suspended in order that I may offer that amendment.

     MR. JONES--And I move to lay the motion to reconsider on the table.

     A vote being taken the motion to lay on the table was carried.

     MR. O'NEAL--I move to recommit the entire Section to the Committee with instructions to amend it by striking out that portion of the Section which refers to the Governor returning bills with proposed amendments.

     THE PRESIDENT--The previous question has precedence of the motion to recommit and the previous question has been ordered and the question is on the adoption of the Section as amended.

     MR. WHITESIDES--And on that I call for an aye and no vote.


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     The call for the aye and no vote not being sustained by the rising of the requisite number of delegates, on a division the Section as amended was adopted by 73 ayes to 41 noes.

     MR. JONES (Montgomery)--The next Section is Section 14. I desire to state in behalf of the Committee that the only change in that relates to a question of practice. The present Constitution says the Governor can veto a specific item of an appropriation bill and the question then arose as to whether it was his duty to send the bill back with his message and as he has already approved the bill, the opinion seemed to be that it had no business back in the House and this provides that in his message he shall set out specifically the item to which he objects and file the bill with the Secretary of State instead of returning it to the House.

     MR. BROOKS--I offer an amendment.

     THE PRESIDENT--The Secretary will read Section 14.

     Section 14 was read as follows:

     Sec. 14. The Governor shall have power to approve or disapprove any items of any bill making appropriations embracing distinct items, and the part or parts of the bill approved shall be the law, and the item or items disapproved shall be void, unless repassed according to the rules and limitations prescribed for the passage of other bills over the Executive veto; and he shall in writing, state specifically the item or items he disapproves, setting the same out in haec verba in his message; but in such case, the enrolled bill shall not be returned with the Governor's objection.

     The amendment of the delegate from Mobile was read as follows: Amend Section 14 of an ordinance to create and define the Executive Department by striking out the same and inserting the following: Section 14. The Governor shall have power to approve or disapprove any item of any bill embracing distinct items of appropriations and the portion of the bill approved shall be the law. He shall in his message specifically set out in full as the same appears in said bill the item disapproved, which shall be void unless repassed according to rules prescribed for the passage of other bills over the Executive veto, and the enrolled bill shall not be returned with the Governor's objections.

     MR. BROOKS--I do not offer that amendment in any antagonism to the section as reported by the committee. On the contrary, I favor the provision of that section. I do not think that I can be fairly changed--I hope I shall not be considered as being actuated by a spirit of hypehcriticism, when I say that that section can be condensed very materially to its advantage. I think every provision in the Constitution ought to be brief and as succinctly expressed as is consistent with perspicuity. Now, I have endeavored to condense the provisions of that section, and


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     I think I have succeeded in doing so, retaining the full substance reported by the committee and obviating what seems objectionable to some members here the Latin words "in haec verba," which, although appropriate and commonly used in court proceedings, I thought ought to be omitted for obvious reasons in the Constitution which ought to be expressed in the common mother tongue, in the vernacular with which we are all familiar. Therefore, I propose that the amendment which I have just had the honor to introduce, be substituted for the section as reported by the committee.

     MR. JONES (Montgomery)--I would state in behalf of the committee that the draft of this section was taken from the old Constitution, with a few words describing the practice. I have discovered great tenderness about Latin words and in behalf of the committee, we will accept "in so many words" in place of "in haec verba," but our friend seems to forget that there is Latin used in the Constitution, and that the former Constitution makers seemed to think that the people had some knowledge of Latin, for in some of the sections they speak of "habeas corpus" and "quo warranto" and "mandamus."

     MR. ROBINSON--I desire to ask the gentleman a question: Suppose the item that is returned to the House is not sustained, what official record would you have of that in the office of the Secretary of State?

     MR. JONES (Montgomery)--No other than what you would have in any other case of veto. It would appear on the journals and the Secretary would know that item was passed over the Governor's veto.

     MR. ROBINSON--You would have the enrolled bill with that item disapproved of by the Governor in the Secretary of State's office and you have the action on the veto in the journal?

     MR. JONES--There is some slight incongruity either way, but it seemed highly improper to the committee to have a bill before the House that was already a law and with which the House had nothing to do. It should be regulated one way or the other, but the committee has no set desire about that matter.

     MR. LONG (Walker)--You state there are a few changes made. I want to know what they are and I want to know whether "in haec verba" is in the old Constitution?

     MR. JONES (Montgomery)--Does the gentleman understand what "in haec verba" means?

     MR. LONG (Walker)--A great many don't.

     MR. JONES--I didn't ask about "a great many people." I asked if the gentleman understood their meaning.


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     MR. LONG (Butler)--Will the gentleman of the committee accept the amendment to strike out "in haec verba" and insert "in full?"

     MR. JONES (Montgomery)--Yes! send up the amendment.

     THE PRESIDENT--The pending question is on the amendment of the delegate from Mobile, and unless the amendment of the delegate from Butler appears to amend that amendment, it will not be in order at this time.

     MR. LONG (Butler)--I understand the committee has accepted my amendment.

     THE PRESIDENT--The amendment will have to come before the House, unless it is an amendment to the amendment of the delegate from Mobile, which was offered as a substitute, would not be in order.

     MR. LONG (Butler)--Then I move it as a substitute from the amendment of the delegate from Mobile.

     MR. BROOKS--I don't well understand how that can be I understood the gentleman from Butler to offer to amend the Latin words employed by the committee. The whole frame work of the section by my amendment, and he cannot move to amend my amendment by something entirely foreign to it. I don't see how his amendment applies to or touches my amendment. I don't see any words in my amendment to which his amendment could apply.

     THE PRESIDENT--The question is on the amendment of the delegate from Butler.

     MR. O'NEAL--I move to lay that on the table.

     MR. LONG--I withdraw my amendment temporarily.

     THE PRESIDENT--The proposition is before the House and the gentleman cannot withdraw it except by unanimous consent. Is consent given? The chair hears no objection, and the amendment is withdrawn.

     MR. ESPY--I move to lay the amendment of the delegate from Mobile on the table.

     A vote being taken, the amendment of the delegate from Mobile was tabled.

     MR. LONG (Butler)--I now offer my amendment, which the committee accepts.

     The amendment was again read.

     MR. FITTS--That is satisfactory to the committee.


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     MR. O'NEAL--I move to lay the amendment on the table.

     A vote being taken, the motion to table was lost, a further vote being taken, the amendment was adopted.

     MR. FITTS--I now move the adoption of Section 14 as reported by the committee, as amended, and upon that I call for the previous question.

     A vote being taken, the previous question was ordered, and a further vote being taken, the section, as amended, was adopted.

     Section 15 was read as follows:

     Sec. 15. In case of the Governor's removal from office, death, or resignation, the Lieutenant Governor shall become Governor. If both the Governor and Lieutenant Governor are removed from office, die, or resign, prior to the next general election, thereafter, for members of the General Assembly, the Governor and Lieutenant Governor shall be elected at such election for the unexpired term. In case of the impeachment of the Governor, his absence from the State, unsoundness of mind, or other disability, the power and authority of the office shall devolve, in the order herein named, upon the Lieutenant Governor, President pro tem of the Senate, Speaker of the House of Representatives, Attorney General, State Auditor, Secretary of State and State Treasurer; if any of these officers be under any of the disabilities herein specified, the office of Governor shall be administered in the order named by these officers free from such disability until the Governor is acquitted, returns to the State, or is restored to his mind, or relieved from other disability. If the Governor shall be absent from the State over twenty days, the Secretary of State shall notify the Lieutenant Governor, who shall enter upon the duties of Governor, if both the Governor and Lieutenant Governor shall be absent from the State over twenty days, the Secretary of State shall notify the President pro tem of the Senate, who shall enter upon the duties of the Governor, and so on, in case of such absence, he shall notify each of the other officers named in their order, who shall discharge the duties of Governor, until the Governor or other officers entitled to administer the office in succession to the Governor, returns. If the Governor-elect fails or refuses from any cause to qualify, the Lieutenant Governor-elect shall qualify, and exercise the duties of the Governor's office until the Governor-elect qualifies; and in event both the Governor-elect and Lieutenant Governor-elect, from any cause, fail to qualify, the President pro tem of the Senate, the Speaker of the House of Representatives, the Attorney General, State Auditor, Secretary of State, and State Treasurer shall in like manner, in this order named, administer the government until the Governor or Lieutenant Governor-elect qualifies.


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     In the reading it was disclosed that the word "Governor" was omitted after the word "Lieutenant" in one place and it was inserted by consent and appears in the copy as above printed.

     MR. JONES--I have an amendment and when the clerk reads it, I wish to explain it to the House.

     The amendment was read as follows: "Amend Section 15 in the third line by striking out the word "thereafter" and substituting in lieu thereof the words "after their election."

     MR. JONES (Montgomery)--This is insert to make better grammar. In the dictation we used the word "hereafter" instead of after their election.

     A vote being taken the amendment was carried.

     MR. WILLIAMS (Barbour)--I have an amendment.

     MR. JONES--I had not yielded the floor. I want to explain the section.

     THE PRESIDENT--Has the gentleman any amendment to propose?

     MR. JONES (Montgomery)--I want to explain simply.

     THE PRESIDENT--Does the gentleman from Barbour withdraw his amendment?

     MR. WILLIAMS (Barbour) --Temporarily.

     MR. JONES (Montgomery)--I will state to the Convention that the Committee considered this with very great care. We did not attempt to shorten this section because we have had an example very lately of the results of too much brevity in dealing with things that may be obscure. So the Committee took up first, the removal, death or resignation of the Governor and said who should succeed him. Then they provide if both the Governor and Lieutenant Governor are removed from office, die or resign prior to the next general election after their election for members of the General Assembly the Governor and Lieutenant Governor shall be elected for the unexpired term. Then the Committee provided as in the old Constitution for the cases of disability, unsoundness of mind, and absence from the State and added the three other officers named in addition to the President of the Senate and Speaker of the House. Then they take up the question of absence and who shall administer the office in that event. They they provide in so many words for the contingency of the Governor-elect failing or refusing to qualify and for a failure or refusal of the Lieutenant Governor to qualify and we hope we have made the Article so plain that it will meet the approval of the Convention. Now I yield the floor to the delegate from Barbour who withdrew his amendment to allow me to make my explanation.


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     MR. WILLIAMS (Barbour)--I offer an amendment.

     The amendment was read as follows:

     "Amend Section 15 by inserting after the words 'unexpired term' in the fifth line, the following sentence: And in the event of a vacancy in the office caused by the removal from office, death or resignation of the Governor or Lieutenant Governor, pending such vacancy, and until their successors shall be elected and qualified, the office of Governor shall be held and administered by either the President pro tem of the Senate, Speaker of the House of Representatives, Attorney General, Auditor, Secretary of State and Treasurer, and in the order herein named.

     MR. WILLIAMS (Barbour)--The purpose of that is to prevent an interregnum. I think if the gentleman will read their Section that they will see under their Section there is a possibility of an interregnum. "In case of the Governor's removal from office, death, or resignation, the Lieutenant-Governor shall become Governor." Now that is straight. "If both the Governor and the Lieutenant-Governor are removed from office, die, or resign, prior to the next general election, thereafter, for members of the General Assembly, the Governor and Lieutenant-Governor shall be elected at such general election for the unexpired term." If they are both out there is a vacancy. This Section simply looks to an election for their successors, but that may be twelve or eighteen months off. Now there are three situations in which the other officers of the State are called upon to take the Executive chair and neither one of those situations is the one that is named in the first part of this Section. In case of the impeachment of the Governor, his absence from the State, unsoundness of mind or other disabilities, the power and authority of the office shall devolve in the order named upon the different State officers. Now, that is not the situation. The first contingency is where both the Governor and Lieutenant-Governor are out and there is a vacancy and the provision is that sometime when the election comes on a successor shall be elected. Now further, in line seventeen, there is another contingency. If the Governor shall be absent from the State over twenty days the Secretary of State shall notify the Lieutenant-Governor, who shall enter upon the duties of the Governor, if both the Governor and Lieutenant-Governor shall be absent from the State over twenty days, the Secretary of State shall notify the President pro tem of the Senate, who shall enter upon the duties of the Governor. That is not the situation presented in the first part of his ordinance, because there is no vacancy, they are simply absent from the State for a given length of time. The last contingency is if the Governor fails or refuses from any cause to qualify the Lieutenant-Governor shall qualify and exercise the duties of the office until the Governor elected qualifies. And in


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the event both the Governor-elect and the Lieutenant-Governor fail to qualify the President pro tem of the Senate and Speaker of the House, etc.

     Now, not one of these adjustments, if I understand the reading of them, provide for the incumbency in the event of vacancy. In the first provision if the Governor and Lieutenant-Governor both shall die, resign or be removed from office, it provides for an election, and all these other arrangements for the incumbency and administration of the office are for special conditions, neither one of which is the contingency to which I refer and it struck me there is a vacancy unavoidable, and the amendment I offer provides for that situation, wiping out any chance of a vacancy. It is an amendment that does not harm even if the gentlemen think it is not necessary, but reading this ordinance in plain old-fashion English, I cannot see it otherwise than there may be a vacancy with no one provided to fill it.

     MR. BOONE--I move that the amendment be adopted.

     A vote being taken the amendment was adopted.

     MR. PETTUS--I offer an amendment.

     The amendment was read as follows:

     "Amend Section 15 of Article V. by striking out the words 'President pro tem of the Senate' in lines 22 and 23 of said Section."

     MR. PETTUS--My reason for offering that amendment is that at a time when the Senate is not in session if a question as to the succession to the office of Governor arose, there might be grave doubt as to who is the President pro tem of the Senate, or in case there is no President pro tem of the Senate and the succession should go to the Speaker of the House, there might be some question as to whether or not a President pro tem of the Senate subsequently elected, after the Speaker of the House had assumed the duties of the office--as to whether the President pro tem had a superior right, although elected subsequently to the Speaker of the House taking charge. To remove that doubt I move to strike out "President of the Senate" wherever it occurs in this Section and in the amendment proposed by the gentleman from Barbour. It seems to me that having provided for a Lieutenant-Governor who presides under the Constitution over the deliberations of the Senate, if he is incompetent or refuses to qualify for his office that the succession should go directly to the Speaker of the House, and not to the President pro tem of the Senate, and I therefore move the adoption of the amendment.

     MR. JONES--I call my friend's attention to the fact that provision is made in the Constitution for the election of a President pro tem of the Senate when the Lieutenant-Governor is absent


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from the Senate, therefore, if the Lieutenant-Governor were to die or, as is the common practice in Washington, gets out of the way for the purpose of allowing a President pro tem to be elected. the President pro tem would be elected and the records show that he was President pro tem of the Senate, and, it seems to me there is no necessity of the amendment of the gentleman from Limestone.

     MR. PETTUS--In the event of the Governor succeeding to his office before the meeting of the Legislature, and then a vacancy occurring and the Lieutenant-Governor refuses to qualify, the succession would go directly to the Speaker of the last House.

     MR. JONES--I think it would go to the President pro tem of the Senate, if there was such an officer.

     MR. PETTUS--But suppose there is no such officer, it would go to the Speaker of the House, and suppose after he takes charge a President of the Senate is elected, would the Speaker of the House hold on or would the President pro tem of the Senate take charge?

     MR. JONES--I could not say. I have not examined as to that.

     MR. PETTUS--Then there is a doubt as to the construction, and we ought to make it plain.

     MR. JONES--I would not give an off-hand opinion on a constitutional question like that, but it seems the last President pro tem would be the one to take charge.

     MR. PETTUS--I would ask if the President pro tem is not a casual officer?

     MR. JONES (Montgomery)--Casual in one sense, because he is created when the Lieutenant-Governor is away, but he is no more casual than any other officer. I move to lay that amendment on the table.

     On a division the motion was carried by 75 yeas and 22 nays, so the amendment was tabled.

     MR. FITTS--I now move the adoption of Section 15 as amended and upon that I call the previous question.

     MR. ROBINSON--I will ask the gentleman to withdraw that a moment. I would like in line six where the words are "his absence from the State for over twenty days," I would like to make that twelve.

     MR. FITTS--I do not yield.


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     THE PRESIDENT--The gentleman from Tuscaloosa moves for the adoption of the section as amended and calls for the previous question.

     MR. REESE--I want to be informed. In Section 5 of this article it provides that the Governor shall be ineligible to office and is under a pledge not to go to the United States Senate. This Section 15 provides for the election of a Governor for an unexpired term. Is he to be excluded the same way?

     MR. FITTS--He is.

     MR. REESE--And in the event the Attorney General is called on to be Governor, who is to serve as Attorney General?

     MR. FITTS--The probability of an Attorney General ever succeeding as Governor is so remote that we did not think it was necessary to make Constitutional provision, but should it over occur, the Attorney General would vacate his office by becoming Governor and he would appoint his own successor to the office of Attorney General.

     A vote being taken the previous question was ordered and a further vote being taken the section as amended was adopted.

     THE PRESIDENT--Read the next section.

     Section 16 was read as follows:

     Sec. 16. If the Governor or other officer administering the office shall become of unsound mind, it shall be the duty of the Supreme Court of Alabama, upon request in writing of any two of the officers named in Section 15, not next in succession to the Governor, to ascertain the mental condition of the Governor, or other officer exercising the office--and if he is of unsound mind, to so certify upon its minutes; a copy of which, duly certified, shall be filed in the office of the Secretary of State; and in that event, it shall be the duty of the officer next in succession, to perform the duties of the Governor, until the Governor or other officer exercising the office is restored to his mind; when the incumbent denies that the Governor or other person entitled to administer the office, has been restored to his mind, the Supreme Court, at the instance of any officer named in Section 15, shall ascertain the truth concerning the same, and, if the officer has been restored to his mind, shall so certify on its minutes and file a duly certified copy thereof with the Secretary of State, and in that event his office shall be restored to him."

     MR. JONES (Montgomery)--The committee has an amendment.

     The amendment was read as follows: Amend Section 16, line 2, by adding after the Word Alabama the words "under such regulations as may be prescribed."


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     MR. JONES--I will state the object of the committee in offering that is to give the Supreme Court the machinery to make such regulations as they see fit in the event a case arises. After conversing with members of the Judiciary Committee and other distinguished members of this body it was thought wisest to allow the Supreme Court itself to make such rules and regulations as it deemed proper, and, therefore, in deference to their opinions the committee offers this amendment.

     MR. ROBINSON--I desire to ask the gentleman a question. This section says in line one "If the Governor shall become of unsound mind it shall be the duty of the Supreme Court to have an inquisition." Why should there be an inquisition if he is of unsound mind?

     MR. JONES (Montgomery)--Suppose it is disputed?

     MR. ROBINSON--But you say if he "is."

     MR. JONES (Montgomery)--The language is "if the Governor shall become."

     MR. ROBINSON--If he is of unsound mind, why necessary to inquire into it.

     MR. JONES (Montgomery)--It is to prevent conflicts that might arise. Suppose I were Governor and the Lieutenant Governor said I was crazy and the Lieutenant Governor went into the office and commenced to act and I said he was crazy and I took possession. The matter of succession under such circumstances is so delicate a thing that it is proper to have some tribunal. As all Governors are mortal it is a contingency that may arise and we thought it was necessary to provide some tribunal to determine the fact.

     MR. McDONALD--I have an amendment to the amendment proposed by the Committee.

     The amendment was read as follows: "Amend the Committee's amendment to Section 16 of Article V by adding the following words: `The request in writing hereinabove provided for shall be verified by affidavit of those making such request, and the Supreme Court shall prescribe rules of practice in such proceedings, which rules shall include a provision for the service of notice on the Governor of such proceeding and the method of taking testimony therein.' "

     MR. MACDONALD--I offer that amendment because I think it unwise that it should be left to the Supreme Court to decide whether or no such a grave matter as the sanity of the Governor shall be tested in an ex parte proceeding. The Section offered by the Committee left it entirely discretionary with the Supreme Court to provide rules of practice or give any notice to


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the Governor but merely provides that any two of the officers by request, whether written or verbal, can call upon that great body to act upon such a serious question as the sanity or insanity of the Chief Executive of the State.

     MR. FITTS--The Committee is content with your suggestion and will accept your amendment.

     MR. JONES--We were trying to avoid using so many words.

     MR. PILLANS--I wished to make a suggestion to the Chairman of the Committee which I thought would reach the objection of the delegate from Chambers, but I could not get the floor and I offer it now as a substitute to the amendment offered.

     THE PRESIDENT--The chair will suggest to the gentleman from Mobile that there is now pending an amendment to the Article as reported and an amendment to that amendment.

     MR. PILLANS--One was an amendment of the Committee.

     THE PRESIDENT--But under the rules under which we are proceeding, it will be necessary to submit that to the Convention and then your amendment will be in order as soon as one amendment is disposed of.

     MR. PILLANS--I ask that it be read, because it covers the matters dealt with in those amendments and I think harmonizes the situation.

     The amendment of the delegate from Mobile was read as follows:

     "Resolved, That Section 16 of Article V be amended as follows: By adding after the word `shall' in the first line of Section 16 and before the word `become' in that line two words `appear to have' so that said line shall read `if the Governor or other officer administering the office shall appear to have become of unsound mind,' etc., and by adding at the end of the third line the words `under such rules and methods of procedure as it may prescribe and adopt for hearing and determining such matters.

     The hour of adjournment having arrived, Committee meetings were announced, and the Convention then adjourned.