735

CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION, 1901

TWENTY-FIFTH DAY
________

                                                                                                                                        MONTGOMERY, ALA.,

                                                                                                                                        Thursday, June 20, 1901.

     The Convention met pursuant to adjournment, was called to order by the President, and the proceedings were opened with prayer by the Rev. Mr. Murphy, as follows:

     O Lord and Judge and Father of us all, whom to know is life eternal, and to serve whom is to be free indeed, keep us, we beseech Thee, under the shadow of Thine hand and within the pathways of Thy will. Grant to us the counsels of wisdom and the gifts of the teachable, and the pure, that with one mind we may promote the prosperity and happiness of the people, and that with one heart we may broaden the heritage of order and of justice. Bring from the humble store of the service of our days some treasure of nobility and worth, that Thy name may be glorified


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and that the land may find honor and delight. Increase among the people that affection for the sanctions of law, and that instinctive reverence for public order, which may extend the security and dignity of the State, and may fulfill, in sobriety and equity, the meaning of its Constitution.

     To all within this House who bear the confidences and commissions of the people, grant the wisdom to understand and the will to do. If there be any man among us in sickness of body or distress of mind, grant, O God, deliverance and peace and light. Within the homes of all who serve Thee here, bring the tender providences of Thy grace and joy. In these, the days of our labor, and in the last hour, "when the busy world is hushed and the fever of our life is over and our work is done," give us Thy hand, O God, to lead and to sustain! We ask it for Thy love's sake, in Jesus Christ, our Lord. Amen.

     Upon a call of the roll, one hundred and forty delegates responded.

     MR. WADDELL--I move a suspension of the rules and that we dispense with the regular order, and proceed with the consideration of the report of the Committee on Executive Department.

     THE PRESIDENT--The next regular order is the report of the Committee on the Journal. Does the gentleman desire to dispense with that?

     MR. WADDELL--No, sir.

     The report of the Committee on Journal was read stating that the Journal for the twenty-fourth day had been examined by the Committee and found to be correct. The report was adopted.

     MR. PETTUS--I gave notice yesterday that I would move a reconsideration of the vote by which Section twenty of the report of the Committee on Executive Department was adopted. I now move, Mr. President, to reconsider the vote by which Section twenty was adopted.

     MR. JONES (Montgomery)--I rise to a point of order.

     THE PRESIDENT--The Chair will state that the motion to reconsider is pending for the consideration of the Convention at the time.

     MR. JONES (Montgomery)--I rise to a point of order, Mr. President.

     THE PRESIDENT--The gentleman will state the point of order.


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     MR. JONES (Montgomery) -- And that is the gentleman from Limestone is not in a position to make such a motion. He voted as he says himself, and as the record shows, in the affirmative, but the affirmative did not prevail, and as I understand it no one can make a motion to reconsider unless he voted with the prevailing side.

     MR. PETTUS--In regard to the point of order. I would like to state to the gentleman from Montgomery that on the final vote for the adoption of the Section I voted in the affirmative and the affirmative won and the Section was adopted.

     MR. JONES (Montgomery)--If the gentleman says that is the fact I accept it.

     MR. PETTUS--I gave notice of that on yesterday.

     THE PRESIDENT--The gentleman gave notice yesterday, that he voted with the prevailing side, and that he would move to reconsider.

     MR. PETTUS--I have no speech to make on the subject.

     THE PRESIDENT -- The gentleman from Limestone will suspend a moment.

     MR. SANDERS--I ask the gentleman to suspend a moment and ask unanimous consent to introduce a short resolution.

     MR. PETTUS--Without yielding the floor, I withdraw for that purpose.

     There being no objection, the resolution was read.

     Resolution No. 171, by Mr. Sanders of Limestone:

     Resolved, That this Convention extend hearty greeting to the Alabama Press Association, now in session in Montgomery, and hereby expresses its appreciation of the efforts which the State press have constantly put forth in behalf of a Constitutional Convention in Alabama. We realize that it is through the instrumentality of the press, county, weekly and daily, that we shall be able to reach the people, and that the future political destiny of Alabama is largely in the hands of the newspapers of the State. We hereby express the hope that the labors of this Convention shall be so characterized by wisdom and courage as to command the unqualified endorsement and support of the press of Alabama.

     MR. SANDERS--In order to put that resolution upon its immediate passage, I move a suspension of the rules.

     MR. deGRAFFENREID--I second the motion.

     MR. BURNS--I have a substitute.


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     MR. LOMAX--Pending that motion, I rise to a question of privilege.

     THE PRESIDENT--The gentleman will state the question of privilege.

     MR. LOMAX--Merely for the purpose of having a correction made of a misprint in the proceedings of the twenty-third day. In the ordinance offered by me on the twenty-third day of the Convention in reference to the University, the word "institution" is substituted for the word "instruction," which destroys the sense of the ordinance. I desire to ask that it be corrected, so as to make the ordinance read: "That the Board of Trustees may if they deem proper, for the best interests of said university, abolish the military system of said institution, and reduce said system to a department of instruction, instead of "institution," as it is painted.

     MR. GREER (Perry)--I wish to enter an objection to the consideration of the resolution which has just been read. This body yesterday--

     THE PRESIDENT--The gentleman will state that the motion to suspend the rules is not debatable.

     MR. GREER--I would ask that the Convention allow me just a few words on that.

     THE PRESIDENT--The gentleman asks unanimous consent to make a statement to the Convention, is there objection?

     Objection was made.

     Upon a vote the rules were suspended.

     MR. BURNS--I now beg leave to offer my substitute. I was opposed to having the rules suspended, but if they are suspended, I desire to offer a substitute.

     Substitute by Mr. Burns of Dallas:

     Resolved that this convention recognizes and appreciates the ability, loyalty, and influence of the Press of Alabama. That these champions of free speech and religious liberty in this State are hereby extended the courtesies of the floor.

     MR. GREER--Mr. President, I simply wish to state that the same resolutions were offered by me on yesterday, and for this supreme body to rescind its action of yesterday and call it up again today I do not think is right. Now Mr. President, the members of the Press have already been extended the privileges of the offices of the Governor, the Secretary of State, State Treasurer, and other officers. Therefore, inasmuch as this convention acted yesterday on this resolution, I do not believe, that it would


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be to the, interest of this convention to call up this thing again. Therefore I am note in favor of airing this any more than it has already been aired. While it was received as a matter of levity, the Press Association has taken it seriously, and if we take up this matter now and air it again, by a representative body of 155 men in the State of Alabama, it is a reflection on them. Therefore I move to table both of these resolutions.

     THE PRESIDENT--The gentleman moves that the original resolution and the substitute be laid on the table.

     MR. PETTUS- I call for a division of the question.

     THE PRESIDENT--In the opinion of the Chair the motion relates to both resolutions and there is nothing that is divisible.

     MR. JENKINS--I would ask the gentleman from Perry to withdraw the motion a moment.

     THE PRESIDENT--The motion of the delegate from Limestone was withdrawn.

     MR. PETTUS--I rise to a question of parliamentary inquiry. Is it not possible to have a division, so as to vote on the motion to table the substitute?

     THE PRESIDENT--Not if the gentleman makes his motion relate to both. It is optional with him as to the scope he will give his motion.

     MR. HEFLIN (Chambers)--I hope that the gentleman from Perry will withdraw his motion. This convention understands the resolution. It is not the purpose or desire of this convention I know to insult the Press of Alabama, and I see no harm in passing the resolution offered here this morning.

     The question was put on the motion to table, and the vote taken.

     MR. GREER--I demand a yea and nay vote.

     MR. WHITE--That is too late Mr. President. I make the point of order that it is too late, as the vote has been announced.

     THE PRESIDENT--The result of the vote had not been announced on the viva voce vote. As many as favor the call for an aye and no vote will rise.

     The call for an aye and no vote was not sustained by the requisite number rising.

     MR. SANDERS--I move to table the substitute.

     THE PRESIDENT--The Chair has not announced the result of the vote on the motion made by the gentleman from Perry.


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It seems to the Chair that the noes have it; the noes have it, and the convention refuses to lay the resolution upon the table. The gentleman from Limestone moves to lay the substitute upon the table.

     MR. DUKE--I ask that the substitute be read.

     The substitute was read again.

     MR. GREER--I have just learned that the Committee to which that was .referred on yesterday is ready to make its report, and we may now take up that report.

     THE PRESIDENT--The question is on the motion of the gentleman from Limestone to table the substitute of the gentleman from Dallas.

     The motion was carried.

     THE PRESIDENT -- The question recurs on the original resolution.

     MR. BURNETT--I offer an amendment to the resolution.

     The amendment was read as follows:

     Amend by striking out all after the words "we hereby express the hope."

     MR. BURNETT--I do not think that this convention ought to blow its own horn, and therefore I move to strike out all expressing the hope as to what we may do, and let the press and the people consider what we may do, without our expressing any hope, and, for that reason I offer the amendment.

     A vote being taken, a division was called for.

     MR. GREER (During the voting)--I ask that we hear from the committee, to which this was referred on yesterday.

     THE PRESIDENT--The report of the Committee is not in order at this time, the Chair will state to the gentleman from Perry.

     The amendment of the delegate from Conecuh was lost.

     MR. SANDERS--I call for the previous question.

     The main question was ordered and upon a further vote the resolution offered by the delegate from Limestone (Mr. Sanders) was adopted.

     MR. PETTUS--I have not any lengthy speech to make on this proposition, Mr. President, but in regard to the motion to reconsider the vote by which Section 20 was adopted, I will state I have just been informed that the Committee on Legislative Department


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CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION, 1901

will probably report a section making the sessions and elections of the Legislature quadrennial, thus doubling the time for which Representatives are elected at present, and I submit that with that innovation in the Constitution it is a stronger reason why we should no make any member of the Legislature ineligible to appointment to any office in this State, other than the one to which he is elected by the people. I voted, Mr. President, with the Committee on the proposition to make the Governor of the State of Alabama ineligible to the office of United States Senator or to succeed himself, because I realize that perhaps it was wise to go to a certain extent in hedging against the frailty of human nature, and I knew that the office of Governor of the State of Alabama, being the highest in the gift of the State, was sufficient to attract the best talent in the State, for is own sake and for the fame that holding the office would bring to any man, That amendment as reported by the Committee in substance was adopted and the Convention by that Section has removed from the Governor of Alabama the temptation to abuse his power, and the patronage that might be at his disposal in appointing the members in the General Assembly to any office, and since the temptation has been removed from the Governor, if we get a good man, as we shall, in the office of Governor, the only ambition which he can have and from which he can hope to gain any reward is to make a good, clean record in the gubernatorial chair, and while I realize the importance of the independence of the three co-ordinate branches of the State Government, I submit where the Governor is actuated by high and patriotic motives, it is not altogether unwise for him to have some influence in the halls of
legislation. I was willing to go with the Committee that far into the land of Eutopia, to make the Governor ineligible to succeed himself and to make him ineligible to the United States Senate. It is a matter of common knowledge that the office of Representative in the General Assembly of Alabama is not an office which is sufficiently attractive in itself or the emoluments of which are sufficiently great--it is not so attractive to the generality of mankind that it is liable to draw the very best talent in the State. It is true, good men have served in the General Assembly, in the past, and will in the future, from motives of patriotism, but in this material age men look to other motives than motives of unselfish patriotism, and I submit if we make the term four years, and absolutely disqualify him during that time, to disqualify him from any office that becomes vacant during his term, it will be a serious drawback to getting good men in the Legislature, and I submit we will not get as good men in the Legislature as we have in the past under such a condition of affairs as that. It will not be a man getting into politics to go to the Legislature, but retiring him from politics, and for these reasons, believing that having removed the temptation from the Governor to abuse his patronage that the influence he will exercise will be entirely salutary I move a reconsideration of the question.


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     MR. OATES--I desire to consume a few minutes time in calling the attention of the Convention to reasons for the motion made by the delegate from Limestone (Pettus) to reconsider the vote by which the provision in the report of the Executive Department touching this subject was adopted. If a recollect correctly that prohibits the Governor from appointing any member of the General Assembly during his term. What I wish to impress is, that it seems to me that that is too narrow. The provision in the present Constitution--it has been in part subject to abuse, and hence the necessity for amending it -- it reads: "No Senator or Representative shall, during the term for which he is elected, be appointed to any civil office of profit under this State, which shall have been created, or the emoluments of which
shall have been increased during such term, except such offices as may be filled by election of the people." I confess that this was not perfectly clear to me until studied and discussed, though it has been in the Constitution of Alabama probably ever since we had a Constitution. As I learn the complaints made was in
addition to cases that have come before the courts, for instance, the Montgomery case and the Porter case, with which lawyers are all familiar, but later and during the General Assemblies before this last, the then Governor appointed a member to a military office, and some complaint was made about it, and it was supposed that it was really contrary to this provision. If gentlemen will read it they will see it was not, because "military" is not in it, it says "to any civil office which has been created, or the emoluments of which have been increased." Now the amendment which the Committee on Legislative Department deemed necessary to this to operate in the future was simply to incorporate in it after the word civil, "military," "civil or military office of profit." With that amendment in it it seems to me that it is complete and needs no further change. Now let us look further. First, during the term for which a gentleman is elected to the Legislature, in the House, he is ineligible to be appointed either by the action of the General Assembly or by the Governor. For instance, in the Montgomery case, and in the Porter case, too, they were elected by the Legislature of which they were members, the office having been created, and that was, in the language of the Constitution, an appointment.

     Now, sir, these last words: "Except such offices as may be filled by election of the people" presents this kind of a case: Suppose the Governor should see proper in the event of the death of a Circuit Judge an office not created by the Legislature of which the gentleman tendered the appointment was a member at all, and the emoluments of that office not increased by that legislature, and the Governor should think that he found among the members a very suitable man to appoint, a judge, for instance to that office. He could appoint him because that is an office filled by an election of the people, and it cannot be said that this gives


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the Governor an undue power, or should unduly influence him. If he finds a member of the legislature the best man to fill such an office as that, why deny him that power? It has never been done in the history of the State. This clause has remained all the time, and the only complaint that I have ever heard made about it was in its supposed violation by the appointment of a gentleman to a military office, a member of the legislature, when that was not excluded by the provisions of the Constitution. Now with that amendment, by inserting that word, isn't it wise to retain in the Constitution a clause which has been in it from the beginning or shall this Convention take away from the Governor the right to appoint any member of the legislature to any office? I think it ought to be retained with the amendment, and for these reasons, I am in favor of reconsidering the vote by which this section of the report of the Committee on Executive Department was adopted yesterday and to re-enact. I don't care, although this belongs to the Legislative Department, I care nothing about that, I just as leave it was put in the Executive Department. What I want is to aid what little I can in making a good and proper Constitution and I do not think it necessary to reach out and put in such a sweeping provision as that reported by the Committee and which has been adopted by this Convention, and therefore I am in favor of reconsidering it with a view of re-enacting this provision with that single word of amendment in it.

     MR. SENTELL--I hope the members of this Convention will decide to reconsider the vote by which this matter was passed on yesterday. It seems to me that in this matter we have gone too far. To say that members of the legislature shall not be appointed to any office during the entire term for which they have been elected, seems to be going entirely too far. Mr. President, it often happens that a man is elected to the legislature over his protest, he may not desire the place, and yet his people will elect him to the position now, under the present section of the Constitution if he is so elected, although he may resign at once, during the entire term of his office he could not be appointed to any office by the Governor. I am sure that many who voted for this measure have not fully and carefully considered it. Again, Mr. President, it often happens that a member of the legislature may desire an appointment, and that after he has served out his fifty days. Now I can see no reason in the world why he should be prohibited from accepting an appointment to an office after he has served out his fifty days, and there is no reason for their being any influence brought to bear for any improper action.

     MR. OATES--I would like too ask my friend--even then he would not be eligible to appointment until the term for which he has been elected has expired.

     MR. SENTELL--A case in point has been mentioned to me since we have been discussing this question. The present legislature


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has served out the fifty days and the members of that legislature are still members for over a year to come, and yet if a vacancy should happen in their County, although every man in the County should petition the Governor for one of those men to be appointed to that place, under the Constitution he could not be appointed. It goes further, it thwarts the will of the people, even if they want it he cannot be appointed by the Governor under this Constitution.

     MR. OATES--I think your statement is a little too broad. Isn't it confined to offices which have been created or the emoluments have been increased?

     MR. SENTELL--I was referring to the new section that has been adopted. Then there is another consideration. If these extremes are resorted to, if we carry this section to this extreme, I am afraid we will create a disrespect for the Constitution among a great many people of this State. There should be a good reason for making every change, and unless we have a good reason for making a change it seems to me we should retain what we have of the present Constitution, and for these reasons I hope that the members of this Convention will reconsider the Article passed yesterday.

     MR. JONES (Montgomery)--Mr. President, in behalf of the Committee, I desire to say a few words. The only new argument which has been made is one based on a supposition as to what the Committee on Legislative Department will recommend, and the argument presupposes that the Convention will adopt it. It presupposes that we are going to make members of the legislature for four years, and not for two years. It is with great reluctance that I venture to differ on any question, from the policy put forth by the Committee on Legislative Department; but I do not think I am a bold prophet in saying this Convention will elect members of the legislature for four years instead of two years.

     All the arguments that have been made, if you run through them to a logical end, come to this proposition, that there might be some hard cases and therefore the people ought never to limit themselves. This principle of "lead us not into temptation," is not put forth for the first time in this section. It comes from much higher and mightier sources. It may surprise some members to know that as far back as 1819 our forefathers declared in express words against a third term, for the Governor of Alabama. They said that he should not serve more than four years in any six years. Yesterday my good friends from Bibb, and my good friend from Dallas, in a gentle way, rather lectured me for raking up the embers of past political bitterness. My offense, Mr. President, was that I stated truly notorious and open facts in the history of this State. My God, Mr. President, has it come to such a pass that a member of this Convention cannot allude to an


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historical fact, that is true, without being charged with digging up the embers of some buried strife? I trust that in the illustrations in support of propositions of the committee, I have tempered my words with deliberation, and that I have not set down aught in malice; but there are times when we must call a spade a spade. Now my distinguished friend from Montgomery (Mr. Oates) said that he never heard of but one objection, instance of the appointing power in this respect, and at the risk of bringing down upon my head some more censure, I will tell him that it was in my mind, and in the minds of thousands of people in Alabama that in a session of the Legislature in the not very remote past, that an Executive appointed three members, for the first time in the history of the State, from the floor of the two Houses.

     MR. OATES--I want to disclaim that I ever did propose to bring down anything upon the head of my friend, the delegate from Montgomery.

     MR. JONES--I had no reference in the world to my friend and I mean it when I use the word friend--I had no reference to him. I make no complaint because the gentlemen who gave the lecture were my friends. I merely say it was not well founded. The whole question, Mr. President, is this: We have already said that the Governor was human; that he might be tempted by the possession of certain powers to do things that were not for the good of the State. The committee were not dealing with the Governor's office alone, we were trying conscientiously it may be mistakenly, to reach human nature wherever we found it. Don't we all know that the independence of members of the General Assembly is often entirely killed by the consideration they think some office is in sight, and by supporting the measures of the Executive--it may be against their better judgment--they may ingratiate themselves in his favor, and thereby secure an office? Don't we all know it? Now it is said, Mr. President, that good men will not go to the Legislature of Alabama if you shut them out, not from all offices, but from all appointments by the Governor for the term of two years. They say it is hard enough now to get good men. Mr. President, I do not fall in with the general censure of Legislatures. I never save one that was quite as black as it was painted. I leave seen assemblies made up individually of men for a majority of whom I had the most profound respect, yet when they got under this, the subtle influence, the hypnotism of the appointing power, they did things which almost universally met with disapproval. I venture to make this
suggestion: There will be less difficulty in getting good men to go to the Legislature when the scramble for the office ceases, and when it is not confined to men who want to go there because it may give them a leverage on the office of Probate Judge or Solicitor or something else. I may be pardoned for repeating a conversation, which illustrates the position which I maintain, with


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one of the greatest jurists that ever adorned the Bench of Alabama or elsewhere in this Union--Chief justice George W. Stone. In the bitterness which prevailed at times in 1892, some of us thought perhaps if we could remove from the field of strife the two candidates whose claims then engrossed the attention of the people of Alabama, it might tend to the public good. With that purpose I was in hearty sympathy. I had the honor to call on Judge George W. Stone for we believed if that great and good man could be induced to take the office of Governor that perhaps it would save much bitterness and strife which we desired to avert. He turned to me--because he regarded me rather as a son than a grown man--and said: "My son, do you forget the Constitution of the State?" I said I had overlooked it. Read
this--and he pointed out the section in the Constitution which made a Judge ineligible for any other than a judicial office during the term for which he was elected. I remarked that in this instance, at least, it was a misfortune that there was such a provision in the Constitution, and I shall always remember his answer: "No, sir; it is a wise provision. It has done more to elevate the bench in Alabama and in other States where there is such a provision, than all the other causes combined, because it removes those who have the judicial power from temptation." Now we say, Mr. President, remove those who have the legislative power from temptation. Let them come up here to legislate solely for the good of Alabama. If they do that, and are "disfranchised," as they call it, for two years, the plaudits of the people will await
them for unselfish service; and in the end they will be thrice repaid for the temporary disfranchisement. The people seldom fail to promote a faithful and unselfish public servant. These are the reasons, Mr. President, why the committee felt compelled to urge upon this House that the section as adopted stand.

     MR. GRAHAM (Talladega)--For the first time, Mr. President, in the discussion of questions before this body, I beg the indulgence of the Convention for a few words against reconsideration of this proposition. I think that I can mention one fact which has been overlooked by the members of this Convention. When a man becomes a candidate for the Legislature and is elected by the people, there is an implied contract of employment and service, and the member of the Legislature has no right upon his part to break that contract and to enter other employment, except by the wishes and the will of the people. Gentlemen of the Convention, when a member of the Legislature is appointed from his position to some higher office, at that time he leaves his people without a representative in the General Assembly, and there can be no successor under the present Constitution, except by an election of the people, and at great expense to the people. I want to say further, Mr. President, that it is a violation of good faith as between employer and employe. If a man comes to the Legislature sorely for the purpose that he may reach some higher


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position, he ought to put his people on notice before he comes, that they may seek out some one that will stay with there and serve them through the time for which they elect him. If I may be pardoned the expression, I believe that a member of the Legislature should, for the time being, take down his lightning-rod. If he does not care to do it, then let him stay at home and keep it up with the hope that he may receive some appointment to a higher position. It is not merely between the Governor and the members of the Legislature--I waive that point as having been sufficiently and earnestly urged, and rely solely upon the question of good faith between the representative and the people who have elected him. I do not lay any stress upon the point raised by the gentleman from Crenshaw (Mr. Sentell) of conscripting members for the Legislature. There has not been many in the past; there are not likely to be many in the future; take away the hope of reward, and the hope of promotion by appointment, and let a man become a candidate for the Legislature solely upon the proposition that he is the man that the people want, and that he is a man loyal and patriotic enough to stay by the post to which he has been called and render the people patriotic and honorable service, based upon the hope of approval by his constituency at home, and not upon the hope that he may be appointed to some higher position. I hope that this Convention will refuse to reconsider what I think to be one of its best acts since it has been in session.

     MR. REESE--The stenographic report of yesterday's proceedings correctly shows, I suppose, some remarks made on the floor, which might be construed as a reflection upon the ability and work of my distinguished colleagues from Dallas. These remarks were made by me. I did not mean to say that Dallas had not selected her delegates from among her most able and trusted sons. These gentlemen have, in the highest degree, the trust and the confidence of their people, and our people have gladly availed themselves of their services whenever offered.

     Mr. President, I feel hurt that my distinguished friend from Montgomery should have thought that I endeavored to lecture him. Why, my admiration and affection for the gentleman would have precluded such a course, and I candidly say that while the remarks were being made the gentleman was not in my mind at all. I feel sorry for it, because I appreciate and admire the gentleman too much to criticise anything that he should say.

     MR. JONES (Montgomery)--I have only to say that I take no offense at the criticism, and I am sorry if my friend from Dallas thought I displayed any heat. There is no man on the floor for whose good opinion I have greater regard.

     MR. O'NEAL (Lauderdale)--No gentleman who has advocated a reconsideration of this Section, has contended that the


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effect of the Section as already adopted, is not to increase the independence of the Legislative Department in this State. It has been argued that this is a novel proposition. I deny that statement. It has precedent in some of the greatest States in the Union. The great imperial State of New York has a provision in its Constitution, more far reaching in effect than the one proposed by the Committee on Executive Department. I will read that provision to the Convention. Section 7 of the Constitution of New York provides as follows: "No member of the Legislature shall receive any civil appointment within this State, or to the Senate of the United States, from the Governor, the Governor and Senate, or from the Legislature, or from any City Government, during the time for which he shall have been elected; and all such appointments, and all votes given for any such member for any such office or appointment shall be void."

     MR. PETTUS--I would like to ask the gentleman from Lauderdale a question.

     MR. O'NEAL--Certainly.

     MR. PETTUS--For information. Do you know how much the Representative in the General Assembly of the State of New York are paid for their service as such officers?

     MR. O'NEAL--I think about $1,500 a year. The same provision, Mr. President, can be found in the Constitutions of California, Georgia, Missouri, Montana, Nebraska and Pennsylvania. The gentleman from Limestone, who advocates a reconsideration, contends that under the present system we do not secure the election of the ablest and best men in the State to the Legislative Department of the Government. Mr. President, we are bound to recognize the fact that the Legislature is largely composed of ambitious young men who are seeking a political preferment and political promotion at the hands of the Executive of the State. Remove this temptation, and the result will be that you will elevate the tone of the Legislative Department and increase its independence.

     The paramount purpose or this Convention is to purify and elevate the political conditions in Alabama. One of the cardinal principles of our Government, upon which our institutions are founded, is that there should be an entire separation between the three great departments of Government. The greatest man produced during the period of the revolution, who contributed to the Federal list, Mr. Hamilton, and who is regarded by many as the greatest intellect of that period, said on that subject: "No political truth is of greater political value, or is stamped with the authority of the more enlightened patrons of liberty, than that on which this objection is founded; the accumulation of all power, legislative, executive, and judiciary; in the same hands, whether


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of one, or a few, or many, and whether hereditary, self-appointive, or elective, may justly be pronounced the very definition of tyranny. The preservation of liberty requires that the three great departments of power should be separate and distinct. Said Montesquee, there can be no liberty where the legislative and executive powers are united in the same person, or body of magistrates."'

     The purpose of this provision then is to prevent the Executive from dominating and controlling the Legislative Department of the Government by reason of his appointing power, and in accomplishing that we will take a step forward, in a movement of reform which has the approbation and sanction of the people of Alabama, and of the enlightened judgment of this Republic.

     MR. PETTUS--I have the profoundest respect for the ability and learning of the distinguished gentleman from Lauderdale, but I am surprised to see this gentleman speaking so eloquently for the independence of the three co-ordinate departments of State government today, when I understand him to support so ably the report of the Committee on yesterday or the day before, authorizing the Governor to propose amendments to bills on the floor of the House.

     MR. O'NEAL--I opposed that.

     MR. PETTUS--I beg the gentleman's pardon; I was under a misapprehension of the facts.

     MR. O'NEAL--I opposed it bitterly.

     MR. PETTUS--While I recognize the ability of the distinguished authority from which he quotes, I am not willing yet to accept all of the theories of republican government from the hands of Alexander Hamilton.

     Now, Mr. President, I stated briefly in the beginning, why I move for a reconsideration of the vote by which this section was adopted. Examples have been cited here of other States, which have such or similar provisions in their constitutions, making the members of their legislatures ineligible to appointment to any office, but the gentleman himself answered, when I asked him the question, that in those States they are able to pay, and do pay their representatives salaries, that make the offices of members of the legislature sufficient to attract men for the sake of their own emoluments. The very fact, Mr. President, that in the State of Alabama members of the legislature are paid such meagre salaries, the very fact that perhaps if they were to get a little more--

     MR. ROGERS (Sumter)--I would like to ask what the pay of legislators in Georgia is?


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     MR. PETTUS--I am not informed as to what the legislators in Georgia get, but the gentleman stated that the State of New York and the State of Pennsylvania, among others, paid their representatives fifteen hundred dollars a year, and in this section which he read from the Constitution of New York, it makes it unlawful and void for a representative to barter away his vote for any office, which is in the nature of bribery, and certainly any delegate would oppose bribery on the part of any member in the legislature.

     MR. O'NEAL--Will the gentleman permit a question?

     MR. PETTUS--Certainly.

     MR. O'NEAL--Does he contend that in the States of California, Georgia, Montana, Missouri and Nebraska, which have similar provisions, that they are paid any larger amounts than in the State of Alabama?

     MR. PETTUS--I am not informed.

     MR. O'NEAL--My information is that the pay in nearly all of those States is five dollars per day.

     MR. PETTUS--That is certainly more than it is in Alabama, and if they only pay their members five dollars a day and disfranchise them from holding any office, and make them ineligible to appointment, I must say it is unwise in those Constitutions and is an example that we should avoid, rather than one we should follow.

     Now, as stated in the beginning, the principal reason why I oppose making Representatives ineligible to appointment to any office, other than those which they create in the General Assembly, or help to create, during their term, is because the temptation has been removed from the Chief Executive to abuse his patronage, and it is because I believe it is unjust under some circumstances to defeat the will of the people. I might give a simple illustration. Suppose a man, as was so eloquently said by the gentleman from Talladega, is elected unanimously by his people to serve them on the floor of the General Assembly of Alabama. Suppose during his term of office a vacancy occurs in some County office, for example in the office of Probate Judge, and suppose it is the unanimous desire of the people of that County that he be appointed to fill that office. Under this section of the Constitution as reported by the Committee, he would be ineligible, and it would not be within the power of the Governor to comply with the wishes, and with a unanimous demand on the part of the people of that County, to appoint the representatives to that office.

     Now, the distinguished gentleman from Montgomery, the Chairman of the Committee, has quoted as an illustration and analagous case, the example of the Chief Justice or some Supreme


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Judge in this State, being ineligible to hold any office, but I submit, Mr. President, that the office of judge in this State is one that is sufficiently attractive, like the office of Governor, to draw the very best men to serve the people upon the bench, although they are disqualified during that time from holding any other office, and the distinction I make is that the office of representative in the General Assembly is not sufficiently attractive in itself to draw men to serve the people in that capacity, to the great detriment of their private business, in this material age.

     MR. ROGERS (Sumter)--Will the gentleman permit me to ask a question?

     MR. PETTUS--Certainly; will be delighted to hear the question.

     MR. ROGERS (Sumter)--Does the Convention understand that if the office of legislator was a pay office, one where the salary justified it, you would be in favor of his not being appointed to something else.

     MR. PETTUS--I do not know what the Convention understands as to that proposition.

     MR. ROGERS (Sumter)--I want to know what you think about it.

     MR. PETTUS--I will state. Mr. President, that if it were true that representatives in this State were paid a salary of fifteen hundred dollars a year, and the State were able to pay them that salary, that might put a different phase upon the situation.

     Now, Mr. President, I think that this question has been sufficiently discussed and I call for the previous question on the motion to reconsider.

     MR. deGRAFFENREID--We ask for an aye and no vote.

     MR. PETTUS--I rise to a point of inquiry.

     THE PRESIDENT--The gentleman will state the point of inquiry.

     MR. PETTUS--The question was whether or not the previous question was ordered. Do I understand we are having an aye and no vote on the call for the previous question?

     THE PRESIDENT--That is the understanding of the Chair. In the opinion of the Chair a delegate may call for an aye and no vote on any question, if it is called for in time.

     MR. deGRAFFENREID--I withdraw my call for the time being.

     A vote being taken the previous question was ordered.


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     MR. deGRAFFENREID--Now I renew the call for the ayes and noes.

     THE PRESIDENT--The question is upon the motion to reconsider, and upon that the gentleman from Hale calls for an aye and no vote. Is the call sustained?

     The call was sustained by a sufficient number of delegates rising.

     MR. ROGERS (Sumter)--If I am in order, I move to lay the motion of the gentleman from Limestone to reconsider on the table.

     THE PRESIDENT--The previous question has been ordered, and a call for an aye and no vote has been sustained. The question is on the motion to reconsider. Those in favor of reconsideration will vote aye, as their names are called, and those opposed, will vote no.

     During the call of the roll:

     MR. BOONE--Mr. President I would vote aye, but I am paired with Dr. Cunningham, the delegate from Jefferson, who would vote no.

     MR. ASHCRAFT--When my name was called I forgot that I was paired with the gentleman from Colbert, Mr. Carmichael, and if he were here he would vote no, and I would vote aye, and I forgot to mention it at the time my name was called.

     Mr. Ashcraft's vote which had been recorded, was erased from the roll.

     MR. PILLANS--I would vote no, if I were not paired, but I am paired with Mr. Willet of Pickens, who would vote aye.

     The vote resulted as follows:

AYES

Messrs. President,

Cornwall,

Hinson,

Almon,

Davis, of Etowah,

Hood,

Bartlett,

Eley,

Jackson,

Brooks,

Foshee,

Jenkins,

Browne,

Foster,

Knight,

Bulger,

Freeman,

Kyle,

Burnett,

Graham, of Montgomery,

Ledbetter,

Burns,

Grayson,

Long, of Butler,

Byars,

Greer, of Calhoun,

Long, of Walker,

Cardon,

Haley,

McMillan (Wilcox),

Carmichael, of Colbert,

Harrison,

Miller (Marengo),

Carnathon,

Heflin, of Chambers,

Murphree,

Moody,

 Case,

 Heflin, of Randolph,


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NeSmith,

Renfroe,

Thompson,

Oates,

Reynolds (Chilton),

Vaughan,

O'Neill, of Jefferson,

Rogers (Lowndes),

Waddell,

Palmer,

Sanders,

Walker,

Parker (Cullman),

Searcy,

Watts,

Parker (Elmore),

Sentell,

Weatherly,

Pearce,

Sloan,

Whiteside,

Pettus,

Smith (Mobile),

Williams (Elmore),

Pitts,

Sorrell,

Wilson (Clarke),

Proctor,

Studdard,

Wilson (Washington),

Reese,

 

 

TOTAL--70.

NOES

Banks,

Hodges,

Norwood,

Barefield,

Howell,

O'Neal (Lauderdale),

Beddow,

Howze,

Opp,

Bethune,

Inge,

Phillips,

Blackwell,

Jones, of Bibb,

Reynolds, of Henry,

Chapman,

Jones, of Hale,

Robinson,

Cobb,

Jones, of Montgomery,

Rogers (Sumter),

Cofer,

Jones, of Wilcox,

Samford,

Coleman, of Greene

Kirk,

Sanford,

Craig,

Leigh,

Selheimer,

Davis, of DeKalb,

Locklin,

Smith, Mac. A.,

Dent,

Macdonald,

Smith, Morgan M.,

deGraffenreid,

McMillan, of Baldwin,

Spears,

Duke,

Malone,

Spragins,

Espy,

Martin,

Stewart,

Fletcher,

Maxwell,

Tayloe,

Gilmore,

Merrill,

Weakley,

Glover,

Miller (Wilcox),

White,

Graham, of Talladega,

Morrisette,

Williams (Barbour),

Handley,

Mulkey,

Williams (Marengo),

Henderson,

Norman,

Winn,

TOTAL--63.

ABSENT OR NOT VOTING

Ashcraft,

Lowe, of Lawrence,

Willet,

Beavers,

Porter,

Coleman, of Walker,

Cunningham,

Altman,

Eyster,

Ferguson,

Boone,

Fitts,

Grant,

Carmichael, of Colbert,

Lomax,

Greer, of Perry,

O'Rear,

King,

Kirkland,

Pillans,

Sollie,

Lowe, of Jefferson,

 

 

MR. PETTUS--I move to lay Section 20 on the table.


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OFFICIAL PROCEEDINGS

     MR. O'NEAL (Lauderdale)--I call for an aye and nay vote on that motion.

     The call for the ayes and noes was sustained.

     MR. PETTUS--I would like to state for the information of the Convention, that the Legislative Committee are preparing an ordinance to meet this question. The Committee on Legislative Department are preparing to report an ordinance similar to this, to meet what this ordinance was intended to meet. It properly belongs to the Legislative Department.

     Upon the call of the roll, the vote resulted as follows:

AYES

Messrs. President,

Harrison,

Pearce,

Almon,

Heflin, of Chambers,

Pettus,

Bartlett,

Heflin, of Randolph,

Pillans,

Brooks,

Hinson,

Pitts,

Browne,

Hood,

Porter,

Bulger,

Jackson,

Proctor,

Burnett,

Jenkins,

Reese,

Burns,

Knight,

Renfro,

Byars,

Kyle,

Reynolds, of Chilton,

Cardon,

Ledbetter,

Rogers, of Lowndes,

Carmichael, of Colbert,

Long, of Butler,

Sanders,

Carnathon,

Long, of Walker,

Searcy,

Case,

McMillan, of Wilcox,

Sentell,

Cornwall,

Martin,

Sloan,

Davis, of Etowah,

Miller, of Marengo,

Sorrell,

deGraffenreid,

Moody,

Studdard,

Eley,

NeSmith,

Thompson,

Foshee,

Oates,

Waddell,

Foster,

O'Neill (Jefferson),

Watts,

Freeman,

O'Rear,

Weatherly,

Graham, of Montgomery,

Palmer,

Whiteside,

Grayson,

Parker, of Cullman,

Wilson, of Clarke,

Greer, of Calhoun,

Parker, of Elmore,

Wilson, of Washington.

Haley,

 

 

TOTAL--70.

NOES

Banks,

Coleman, of Greene,

Glover,

Barefield,

Craig,

Graham, of Talladega,

Beddow,

Davis, of DeKalb,

Grant,

Bethune,

Dent,

Handley,

Blackwell,

Duke,

Henderson,

Chapman,

Espy,

Hodges,

Cobb,

Fletcher,

Howell,

Cofer,

Gilmore,

Howze,


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Inge,

Morrisette,

Smith, of Mobile,

Jones, of Bibb,

Mulkey,

Smith, Mac A.,

Jones, of Hale,

Murphree,

Smith, Morgan M.,

Jones, of Montgomery,

Norwood,

Spears,

Jones, of Wilcox,

O'Neal, of Lauderdale,

Stewart,

Kirk,

Opp,

Tayloe,

Leigh,

Phillips,

Vaughan,

Locklin,

Reynolds (Henry),

Walker,

McMillan (Baldwin),

Robinson,

Weakley,

MacDonald,

Rogers, of Sumter,

White,

Malone,

Samford,

Williams, of Barbour,

Maxwell,

Sanford,

Williams, of Marengo,

Merrill,

Selheimer,

Winn,

Miller, of Wilcox,

 

 

TOTAL--65.

ABSENT OR NOT VOTING

Altman,

Greer, of Perry,

Coleman, of Colbert,

Willet,

Kirkland,

Coleman, of Walker,

Williams, of Elmore,

Lowe, of Jefferson,

Eyster,

Ashcraft,

Lowe, of Lawrence,

King,

Beavers,

Norman,

Lomax,

Boone,

Spragins,

Fitts,

Cunningham,

Carmichael, of Colbert,

Sollie.

Ferguson,

 

 

     MR. deGRAFFENREID--I give notice that I shall make a motion in the morning to reconsider this vote by which this section was laid on the table.

     MR. OATES--I now move to reconsider this vote and then move to lay that motion on the table.

     MR. WILSON (Clarke)--I rise to a point of order. Under Rule 27 a motion to lay on the table cannot be reconsidered.

     MR. deGRAFFENREID--The motion has not been made. I give notice that I shall make the motion in the morning.

     THE PRESIDENT--The point of order is well taken. The gentleman from Montgomery made the motion to lay on the table and with the same object, but the motion to lay on the table under Rule 27 cannot be reconsidered.

     MR. OATES--That is the universal parliamentary practice to clinch a thing, to move to reconsider and move to lay that on the table.

     THE PRESIDENT--That is the practice in Congress, but under our rules that has been changed.


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OFFICIAL PROCEEDINGS

     MR. SANDERS--I now move the adoption of the substitute offered by me on yesterday for the report of the committee. The substitute disqualifying the holding of office on the part of the General Assembly where the office was created during the term for which they were elected or where the emoluments were increased during their term.

     MR. WADDELL--I rise to a point of order.

     THE PRESIDENT--State the point.

     MR. WADDELL--We are now considering the sections of this article generally and we cannot consider them until they come up in their regular order.

     THE PRESIDENT--The point is well taken.

     MR. FLETCHER--I desire to make a report from the Committee on Banks and Banking. It is a short report.

     THE PRESIDENT -- The gentleman from Madison asks unanimous consent to send up a report from the Committee on Banks and Banking. Is there objection? The Chair hears none and the gentleman will send up the report.

     MR. SAMFORD--I move that the reading of the report be dispensed with.

     It will be printed and put upon the desks of every member in the morning.

     MR. BROOKS -- I would ask the gentleman to withdraw that motion a moment merely to enable me to say that the report of the committee is very brief and it is well to have it read so that members can think over it.

     MR. SAMFORD--If anybody wants to hear it, let it be read.

     The report was read as follows:

     Report of the Committee on Banks and Banking:

     Mr. President:

     The Committee on Banks and Banking have instructed me to make the following report, viz:

     That they have examined all the ordinances and resolutions submitted to them, and without passing upon them separately will say they have embraced the substance of some of them in the article herewith submitted.

     That they have adopted the entire subdivision on banks and banking as it appears in Article XIV of the Constitution with Section 8 added.


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                                                                                                                                    A. S. Fletcher,
                                                                                                                             Chairman on Banks and Banking.

ARTICLE XIV

     Section 1--Sub. Div. Banks and Banking. The General Assembly shall not have the power to establish or incorporate any bank or banking company or money institution, for the purpose of issuing bills of credit, or bills payable to order or bearer, except under the conditions prescribed in this Constitution.

     Sec. 2--No bank shall be established otherwise than under a general banking law, nor otherwise than upon a specie basis.

     Sec. 3--All bills or notes issued as money shall be at all times redeemable in gold or silver, and no law shall be passed sanctioning directly or indirectly the suspension of any bank or banking company or specie payment.

     Sec. 4--Holders of bank notes and depositors who have not stipulated for interest shall, for such notes and deposits, be entitled in case of insolvency to the preference of payment over all other creditors.

     Sec. 5--Every bank or banking company shall be required to cease all banking operations within twenty years from the time of its organization (unless the General Assembly shall extend the time) and promptly thereafter close its business; but shall have corporate capacity to sue and shall be liable to suits until its affairs and liabilities are fully closed.

     Sec. 6--No banks shall receive directly or indirectly a greater rate of interest than shall be allowed by law to individuals for lending money.

     Sec. 7--The State shall not be a stockholder in any bank nor the credit of the State ever be given, or loaned, to any banking company, association or corporation.

     Sec. 8 -- The General Assembly shall be appropriate laws, provide for the examination by some public officer of all banks and banking institutions and trust companies engaged in banking business in this State.

     MR. SAMFORD--That is printed without motion.

     THE PRESIDENT--Under the rule, it lies over one day and will be printed.

     MR. SAMFORD--If I recollect, the continuing order was the consideration of the clause in the Article on Executive Department, touching the great seal of Alabama.


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OFFICIAL PROCEEDINGS

     MR. JONES (Montgomery)--Will the gentleman yield so that I can make a further report from the Committee on Executive Department?

     MR. SAMFORD--Does it relate to the real?

     MR. JONES (Montgomery)--No, sir.

     MR. SAMFORD--Then won't you wait until I get through? Although if you insist on it, I will yield.

     MR. JONES (Montgomery)--No, I won't insist.

     MR. SAMFORD--Then on the pending matter, I demand the previous question.

     MR. LONG (Walker)--I make the point there is nothing before the House, and the gentleman is not in order.

     THE PRESIDENT--The question before the House is Section 22, reported with a substitute, and there is an amendment offered to the substitute by the gentleman from Chambers, which was read just as the Convention adjourned, and the question will be on the amendment of the delegate from Chambers.

     MR. BOONE--I move to table both substitute and amendment.

     THE PRESIDENT--The gentleman from Pike moves the previous question.

     MR. SAMFORD--Yes, my object was to get a vote.

     THE PRESIDENT--And the gentleman from Mobile moves to table the substitute and amendment.

     MR. LONG (Walker)--I make the point of order that the gentleman from Pike was out of order because at that time there vas nothing before the House

     THE PRESIDENT--The point of order is not well taken. The question had been stated when the House adjourned yesterday afternoon.

     MR. LONG (Walker)--What is before the House now?

     THE PRESIDENT--The motion of the gentleman from Mobile to table the substitute offered for Section 22, and the amendment offered thereto by the delegate from Chambers.

     MR. LONG (Walker)--Does that carry with it the report of the committee?

     THE PRESIDENT--It carries with it the substitute reported by the committee, and the amendment of the delegate from Chambers.


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CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION, 1901

     MR. LONG (Walker)--I want to know if it includes the woman on horseback.

     THE PRESIDENT--It includes the substitute offered by the committee and also the amendment of the delegate from Chambers.

     MR. PETTUS--I rise to a question of inquiry. I understood the motion is to table the amendment offered by the delegate from Chambers and the substitute. What is the substitute?

     THE PRESIDENT--The substitute is the woman on horseback.

     MR. BROWNE--I call for a division of the question. There may be members who desire to lay the amendment on the table who don't desire to lay the substitute.

     THE PRESIDENT--That would address itself as a matter of propriety to the gentleman making the motion, but when he moves to table both the amendment and the substitute, there is nothing to divide. Any member can move to table a substitute and amendments, and the original section if he desires. The question is on the motion of the gentleman from Mobile to table.

     MR. HEFLIN (Chambers)--If that is the amendment offered by the gentleman from Montgomery and the substitute of the gentleman from Chambers, I call for an aye and no vote on it.

     MR. SANFORD--What the committee offered was a substitute for the present seal and the gentleman from Chambers offered to amend that by putting an Indian in the seal.

     THE PRESIDENT--The chair understands that the Committee on Executive Department reported a resolution offered by the gentleman from Montgomery with a substitute. Thereupon, the gentleman from Chambers moved to amend by substituting the form of seal indicated in his amendment, and now the gentleman from Mobile moves to table both the amendment offered by the gentleman from Chambers and the substitute reported by the committee.

     MR. HEFLIN (Chambers)--Do I understand that if this motion is carried, the amendment of the delegate from Montgomery will not go to the table?

     THE PRESIDENT--You cannot understand that, for it has been stated exactly to the contrary.

     MR. PETTUS--I rise to a question of inquiry. The delegate from Talladega moved for a division of the question, and I would like to read Rule 37 on that: "Any delegate can call for a division of the question when the sense will admit it." There is a proposition here offered in the shape of a substitute for the


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OFFICIAL PROCEEDINGS

committee's report and an amendment to it by the delegate from Chambers. There are delegates who would like to table the amendment of the delegate from Chambers who would not like to table the substitute of the gentleman from Montgomery, (Mr. Sanford).

     THE PRESIDENT--It is not in the power of the Chair to divide the motion made by the gentleman from Mobile. He makes his motion to table both the amendment and the substitute, and the question is shall the call for the yeas and nays be sustained?

     The call is not sustained.

     A vote being taken on a division there were 65 yeas and 55 nays.

     So the motion to table prevailed.

     MR. JONES (Montgomery)--I now ask unanimous consent for the Committee on Executive Department to report a Section which was recommitted to it and also on a resolution.

     THE PRESIDENT -- The gentleman from Limestone has the floor--I beg pardon, I mean the gentleman from Madison. The Chair will state that the gentleman from Limestone has been so much in the mind of the Chair this morning that the Chair inadvertently made the remark.

     Mr. Spragins offered a substitute for Section 22 as follows: "Typical of the resources of the State of Alabama, the Great Seal of the State which shall be used officially by the Governor shall be the old seal used until 1875 with addition to indicate the mineral as well as the agricultural resources of the State, its rugged
mountains, fertile plains, and beautiful rivers, and that the Legislature shall name a Commission to design said seal on these lines and when approved by the Legislature it shall be the Great Seal of the State of Alabama.

     MR. O'NEAL--I move to lay that on the table.

     A vote being taken the substitute was table.

     MR. deGRAFFENREID--I move the adoption of the Section first reported by the Committee, and upon that I move the previous question.

     A vote being taken the main question was ordered.

     THE PRESIDENT--The question is upon the adoption of Section 22.

     MR. SANFORD--Upon that I call for the ayes and noes.

     THE PRESIDENT -- And upon that the gentleman from Montgomery calls for the ayes and noes, and the question is shall


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CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION, 1901

the call be sustained. The call is not sustained and the question is on the motion of the delegate from Hale to adopt the Section as reported by the Committee.

     MR. SANFORD--I hope the Convention will not adopt it.

     MR. deGRAFFENREID -- The gentleman is not in order. The main question had been ordered.

     MR. SANFORD--I had not heard that the previous question had been ordered.

     MR. LOMAX--Pending the motion to adopt the Section, I move to take from the table the substitute reported by the Committee, offered by the gentleman from Montgomery.

     MR. deGRAFFENREID--I make the point of order that that motion cannot be entertained, the previous question having been offered.

     THE PRESIDENT--In the opinion of the Chair as the previous question has been ordered a motion to take from the table the substitute would not be in order.

     MR. LOMAX -- Will the Chair listen to the reading of a rule: "Rule 25--When a Section is before the Convention motions may be received in the following order: (1) To fix the time to which the Convention shall adjourn. (2) To adjourn. (3) To lay on the table." So a motion to lay on the table has precedence of a motion for a previous question under the rules.

     MR. deGRAFFENREID--But not a motion to take from the table.

     MR. LOMAX--I submit that a motion to take from the table is a motion of equally high privilege as a motion to lay on the table; and, consequently, if a motion to lay on the table has precedence, a motion to take from the table has equal precedence.

     THE PRESIDENT--What is the rule to which the gentleman refers?

     MR. LOMAX--Rule 25. I make that as a parliamentary inquiry.

     MR. BROOKS--The point of order made by the gentleman from Montgomery might be good if we had not already ordered the main question. It is not now in order to make the motion he suggests after the main question is ordered.

     THE PRESIDENT--After the main question is ordered, it is not then, in the opinion of the Chair, in order to move to take from the table a resolution that has been laid on the table by the Convention. Under our rules a motion to adjourn has precedence of a motion for the previous question, but under our rules that


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OFFICIAL PROCEEDINGS

would not be in order after the previous question had been ordered. Rule 26 says: "A motion to adjourn shall always be in order, even in the absence of a quorum, except when on a call for the previous question, the main question shall have been ordered.

     MR. CARMICHAEL (Coffee)--I rise to a point of inquiry. On the adoption of this Section if the previous question is ordered, has not the Chairman of the Committee, or some member designated by him the right to close even though the main question has been ordered? I make this at the instance of the delegate from Montgomery.

     THE PRESIDENT--The Chair did not understand that the gentleman from Montgomery yielded to anyone.

     MR. JONES (Montgomery) -- I will yield to the delegate from Montgomery (Mr. Sanford) on this matter.

     THE PRESIDENT--In the opinion of the Chair the Chairman of the Committee would have a right to yield his time.

     MR. LONG (Walker)--I make the point of order that the Chairman of the Committee has reported an entirely different subject, he has opened and closed on that--

     MR. JONES (Montgomery)--The gentleman is mistaken. I have not opened my lips on this question, but I do want to hear my gallant, chivalrous and gray-headed old soldier friends, whose heart is in this thing and I am going to yield to him.

     MR. PILLANS--Insisting upon a point made in the interest of the conduct of business in an orderly way and the cutting off of debate on a matter that has already been fully debated, I insist that the Chair shall not extend the rule beyond the strict letter of the rule. Under the letter of the rule debate is cut off except the Chairman of the Committee shall close debate. It was not claimed by the Chairman until a suggestion was made and then the Chairman turns over to another member the right to close the debate and I object to that.

     THE PRESIDENT--The Chair cannot recall the language of the rule just at this time, but the rule provides in the recollection of the Chair that the gentleman may yield his time and that is the universal practice, so that it is not in the power of the Chair to deny to a gentleman the right to yield his time.

     MR. LONG--Before you make your ruling I would like to inquire if the gentleman from Montgomery (Mr. Jones) did not yield his time to the gentleman from Montgomery (Mr. Sanford) on this matter?


763

CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION, 1901

     MR. JONES (Montgomery)--I yielded on an entirely different proposition, on the substitute, which has been laid on the table, and is not before the House.

     THE PRESIDENT--Will the gentleman from Montgomery allow the Chair to rule on the question presented by the delegate from Walker. The gentleman from Montgomery had a right to discuss this in the opening and he yielded to the delegate from Montgomery, Mr. Sanford. The Chairman also has a right to close the discussion and he yields that time to Mr. Sanford. The previous question having been ordered, the gentleman has the right to conclude. Under Rule 17, the Chairman of the Committee has a right to close the debate after the previous question is ordered. The Chairman of the Committee or the mover of a proposition notwithstanding the main question has been ordered, has under Rule 17 thirty minutes to conclude the debate and the Chair recognizes the gentleman from Montgomery, Mr. Sanford.

     MR. SANFORD--Mr. President, the present Constitution of the State of Alabama, adopted no seal in 1875, except provisionally we will use the present seal, until the General Assembly shall change it. Evidently that Convention contemplated a change, and an early change, from a figure that represented nothing in Alabama. It is simply a bunch of feathers, that is abhorent to a great many of the people of this State. It does not show anything of the characteristics of Alabama, either with regard to its topography, its history, or the character of its people. The bird that it represents, as was said yesterday, is a bird of prey. Its habitat is all over the American continent; it represents nothing peculiar to the State, and it has this distinction, that it is one of ten other States which has an eagle, or an eagle and some combination with other figures, as the seal of a great commonwealth. That itself is objectionable. Mississippi has the eagle, Illinois has the eagle, foreign states have the eagle, Equador, Bolivia and Austria has an eagle with two heads, Russia has an eagle with two heads, to show that it preys doubly as much as any other nation upon the liberties of her people. I can see no reason why Alabama should adopt this particular insignia or emblem for its great seal, by which the people of Alabama make known its will and its power. I hope that this will not be adopted as the seal of the State of Alabama, not even provisionally, as the report of the Executive Committee suggested, until it shall be changed. If it be until it shall be changed, that contemplates that it shall not be permanent. If it be not permanent, why not change it by this Convention? It has ample power; more power than any Assembly that will meet again possibly in twenty-five years. We come from the people recently, and while this particular question was not debated, it was as much within the possibilities that the seal would be changed, as that many other provisions in the present Constitution would be altered, and I can see no reason why


764

OFFICIAL PROCEEDINGS

we should adopt this. Therefore, Mr. President, if I shall be in order, and I ask for information, I would move that this section of the report be defeated, and that a committee be designated for the purpose of suggesting a design for a Great Seal.

     Why do you want this? I have heard no reason given for it. The committee reported it first or contemplated its report to it as a matter of course. The Convention of 1875 did it merely as a matter of course passing it on, and putting it there provisionally. Therefore I hope that the convention will not adopt the suggestion made by the Committee on Executive Department.

     THE PRESIDENT--The question is on the motion to adopt the section reported by the committee.

     A division was called for.

     MR. BROOKS--Mr. President, I request that I be recorded as voting for it. I was out of the hall when the vote was taken.

     MR. BROWNE--I make the point of order that it is too late for a delegate to vote on a division, after the vote has been taken, if he was not in the Convention at the time the vote was taken.

     THE PRESIDENT--On an aye and no vote the gentleman could have his vote recorded, but on a division the Chair thinks the point of order is well taken.

     By a vote of fifty-four ayes to forty-eight noes the section as reported by the committee was adopted.

     MR. JONES (Montgomery)--I ask unanimous consent to allow this committee to report as to a matter concerning a section of this article, which was referred to it, and also as to one of the resolutions referred to the committee.

     The consent was given, and the resolution reported favorably by the committee was read as follows:

     Resolution 151, by Mr. O'Neal (Lauderdale):

     Resolved by the people of Alabama, in Convention assembled, that it is the sense of this Convention that the General Assembly of Alabama should, at its first meeting after the ratification of this Constitution, fix the salary of the Governor at five thousand dollars per annum provided the same can be done without an
increase of taxation in this State.

     The report of the committee was thereupon read as follows:

     Mr. President:

     The Committee on Executive Department instructs me to report the following substitute for Section 4 of the ordinance


765

CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION, 1901

"to create and define the Executive Department," and the pending amendments, to wit:

     Strike out Section 4 as it now stands and insert in lieu thereof the following words:

     "Sec. 4--The returns of every election for Governor, Lieutenant Governor Secretary of State, State Auditor, State Treasurer, Attorney General, Superintendent of Education and Commissioner of Education and Industries shall be sealed up and transmitted by the returning officers to the seat of Government, directed to the Speaker of the House of Representatives, who shall, during the first week of the session to which said returns shall be made, open and publish them in the presence of both houses of the General Assembly, in joint convention. The joint convention shall supervise and control the Speaker in the discharge of this duty and has power; first, to determine whether the returns are in legal form, made by the proper officers, and truly give the results as ascertained and declared by the Board of Supervisors in the several Counties; second, to correct such errors as may be found therein; third, to procure proper returns, when, for any cause, returns from any County have failed to reach the Speaker. The joint convention shall have no power to question the returns as to any other matters, or in any other respect. The person found to have the highest number of votes for either of said offices shall be declared duly elected; but if two or more persons shall have an equal and the highest number of votes for the same office, the General Assembly by joint vote, without delay, shall choose one of said persons for said office. Conant Governor, Secretary of State, State Auditor, State Treasurer, Attorney General, Superintendent of Education and Commissioner of Agriculture and Industries, shall be determined by both Houses of the General Assembly in such manner as may be prescribed by law.

     The committee recommends the addition of the substitute.

                                                                                                                                     Thomas G. Jones.

                                                                                                                                     Chairman.

     MR. JONES (Montgomery)--Mr. President, does that have to be printed? It is not an original ordinance, but it is a section that has been recommitted to the committee.

     THE PRESIDENT--The original article was brought before the Convention and printed under the rules, and then the section recommitted. The chair does not think it would be necessary that the substitute should be printed, although it is in the power of the Convention to have it done if it so desired.

     MR. JONES (Montgomery)--If it will meet with the pleasure of the Convention as it is in the direction of getting rid of this section, and taking up something that is behind, I move that


766

OFFICIAL PROCEEDINGS

we proceed to consider it now. I will state that it is the unanimous report of the committee, and, I believe, covers every objection that has been raised by any member on the floor.

     THE PRESIDENT -- There is another resolution that the gentleman has brought before the Convention--the resolution of Mr. O'Neal; what disposition will the Convention make of that resolution?

      MR. SPRAGINS--I move to lay it on the table.

      MR. BROWNE--I make the point of order that under the rules the report of the committee must lie on the table until tomorrow. It is a report of the committee on the resolution.

     THE PRESIDENT--It seems to the chair that the rule does not extend to resolutions, but simply to ordinances, that should be printed and lie on the table. The chair, though, will examine the rule.

     MR. HOWZE -- I would refer the chair to Rule 47, which will give you the information.

     THE PRESIDENT--Rule 47 provides: "When any ordinance is introduced, it shall be read at length and be referred by the President without a vote being taken unless otherwise ordered by a two-thirds vote of the Convention, to the appropriate committee. No ordinance shall be reported back from any committee until after the lapse of one entire legislative day. When any committee shall have reported to this Convention any article or section of the proposed Constitution, said article or section shall again be read at length, and 300 copies thereof printed for the use of delegates; and such article or section shall lie on the table at least one day and until in regular order it shall be taken up for consideration by the Convention." This does not apply to resolutions, and they may be immediately considered by the Convention, when reported, or may be postponed, as the Convention may desire.

     MR. deGRAFFENREID--But it does not refer either to a sub-division, the article, or a section. As I understand it, this committee has not reported either an article or a section, but simply a section of one article.

     THE PRESIDENT--They are simply speaking now with reference to the resolution offered by Mr. O'Neal of Lauderdale and reported by the committee.

     MR. JONES--I move the adoption of the resolution.

     THE PRESIDENT--The gentleman from Madison has moved to lay the resolution on the table, and that is the pending question.


767

CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION, 1901

     MR. deGRAFFENREID--Upon that I call for the ayes and noes.

     There were expressions of dissent.

     MR. deGRAFFENREID--I withdraw that, then.

     MR. SPRAGINS--I call for the ayes and noes.

     THE PRESIDENT--The call for the ayes and noes is renewed.

     The call for the ayes and noes being sustained, a reading of the resolution was called for.

     MR. COBB--Is that amendable at this stage?

     THE PRESIDENT--Not while the motion of the gentleman from Madison to lay upon the table is pending. Should the Convention refuse to lay the resolution on the table, it will be open to amendment.

     On a call of the roll, the vote resulted as follows:

AYES

Almon,

Glover,

O'Neill (Jefferson),

Barefield,

Grayson,

Parker (Elmore),

Bartlett,

Greer, of Calhoun,

Pearce,

Browne,

Haley,

Phillips,

Bulger,

Handley,

Porter,

Burns,

Heflin, of Chambers,

Proctor,

Byars,

Henderson,

Reynolds (Chilton),

Cardon,

Hodges,

Reynolds (Henry),

Carnathon,

Jenkins,

Sentell,

Case,

Kirk,

Sloan,

Chapman,

Long (Butler),

Spears,

Coleman, of Greene,

Long (Walker),

Spragins,

Cornwall,

Lowe (Lawrence),

Studdard,

Davis, of DeKalb,

Moody,

Thompson,

Fletcher,

Murphree,

Whiteside,

Foshee,

NeSmith,

Williams (Barbour),

Freeman,

Williams (Elmore),

 

TOTAL--50.

NOES

Messrs. President,

Boone,

Dent,

Banks,

Brooks,

deGraffenreid,

Ashcraft,

Burnett,

Duke,

Beavers,

Cobb,

Eley,

Beddow,

Cofer,

Espy,

Bethune,

Craig,

Fitts,

Blackwell,

Davis, of Etowah,

Foster,

                                          


768

OFFICIAL PROCEEDINGS

Gilmore,

MacDonald,

Robinson,

Graham, of Montgomery,

McMillan (Baldwin),

Rogers (Lowndes),

Graham, of Talladega,

McMillan (Wilcox),

Rogers (Sumter),

Grant,

Malone,

Samford,

Harrison,

Martin,

Sanders,

Heflin, of Randolph,

Maxwell,

Sanford,

Hinson,

Merrill,

Searcy,

Hood,

Miller (Marengo),

Selheimer,

Howell,

Miller (Wilcox),

Smith (Mobile),

Howze,

Mulkey,

Smith, Mac. A.,

Inge,

Norman,

Smith, Morgan M.,

Jackson,

Norwood,

Tayloe,

Jones, of Bibb,

Oates,

Vaughan,

Jones, of Montgomery,

O'Neal (Lauderdale),

Waddell,

Jones, of Wilcox,

Opp,

Walker,

Knight,

Palmer,

Watts,

Kyle,

Parker (Cullman),

White,

Ledbetter,

Pettus,

Williams (Marengo),

Leigh,

Pillans,

Wilson (Clarke),

Locklin,

Pitts,

Wilson (Washington),

Lomax,

Reese,

Winn,

Lowe (Jefferson),

Renfro,

 

 TOTAL--87.

ABSENT OR NOT VOTING

Altman,

Greer, of Perry,

Sollie,

Carmichael, of Colbert,

Jones, of Hale,

Sorrell,

Carmichael, of Coffee,

King,

Stewart,

Coleman, of Walker,

Kirkland,

Weakley,

Cunningham,

Morrisette,

Weatherly,

Eyster,

O'Rear,

Willet,

Ferguson,

 

 

     MR. PFTTUS--Mr. President, I ask unanimous leave to explain my vote.

     Objection was made.

     THE PRESIDENT--Objection is made, and the gentleman is out of order. By a vote of forty-seven ayes and eighty-seven noes, the motion to table is lost.

     MR. COBB--I desire to amend the resolution so as to provide that the Legislature be requested to increase the salary.

     THE PRESIDENT -- The chair will state that the chair will not entertain a motion unless it is put in writing. The clerks find it impossible to keep the journal correct, unless the amendments are put in writing.


769

CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION, 1901

     MR. COBB--If the chair will let me explain myself, I will put it in writing and send it up.

     THE PRESIDENT--The gentleman will proceed.

     MR. JONES (Montgomery)--I will state on behalf of the committee and the mover of the resolution, that the amendment suggested by my friend from Macon will be entirely agreeable.

     MR. COBB--It would be entirely agreeable to me, provided the Chair had not ruled already, and if that concluded the matter, I would say no more, but the Chair has ruled that it still must go to the Convention, whether this acceptance will be allowed, and on that I ask to say a word or two.

     MR. O'NEAL (Lauderdale)--I ask unanimous consent that it be accepted.

     To which objection was made.

     MR. COBB--I do not propose to detain the Convention at any length. I merely want to call the attention of the Convention to the fact that what was presented by the Committee was identically the same proposition which has already been passed upon by the Convention, inasmuch as the original proposition makes it obligatory upon the General Assembly to do the thing which the Convention itself has declined to do, and in this connection I wish to take occasion to say that those who voted in the negative to the prior proposition, have come to understand, myself among the number, and were perfectly willing to have the salary of the Governor made $5,000 a year, but we took the position that that was a matter to be determined by the General Assembly itself, and therefore any proposition which comes before this Convention along the line of an increase in this salary, I heartily approve.

     MR. O'NEAL (Lauderdale)--Will the gentleman allow me to interrupt him?

     MR. COBB--Yes.

     MR. O'NEAL (Lauderdale) -- The original resolution contains the word "should" instead of "shall." It was mis-read. It is "the sense of this Convention that the General Assembly should."

     MR. COBB--That is the sense of my resolution. I voted before not because. I am opposed to a raise in the salary, but because I believe it ought to be determined by the Legislature and not by the Convention, and I am willing to say to the General Assembly that in the opinion of the Convention it should be done,
if it meets a concurrence with their opinion.


770

OFFICIAL PROCEEDINGS

     MR. HEFLIN (Chambers)--Does not the word "should" make it in the nature of a request?

     MR. COBB--Yes, "should" will do ; any language to leave it discretionary with the General Assembly as to whether it shall be done or not.

     THE PRESIDENT--The Chair will state for the information of the Convention that the word in the original resolution is "should" instead of "shall" that meets the objection of the gentleman, and the amendment of the gentleman from Macon is withdrawn.

     MR. PETTUS--I simply wanted to state in order that my position may not be misunderstood, I voted against the Committee on the proposition to increase the Governor's salary, because I did not believe that this was the proper forum in which to legislate a question. Now, Mr. President, in order that the position of the Convention may not be misunderstood, as opposing the increase in the Governor's salary on any grounds, I desire to vote with the Committee on the resolution offered by the gentleman from Lauderdale. I think this is a matter for the General Assembly to determine.

     MR. COLEMAN (Greene)-- I offer an amendment to the resolution.

     The amendment was read as follows:

     Move to amend the resolution by striking out the words at the end of the resolution "if it can be done without increase of taxation," and to substitute therefor the following words: "If in the discretion of the Legislature it is for the best interests of the State of Alabama."

     MR. SANFORD--I move to lay the amendment on the table.

     THE PRESIDENT -- The gentleman from Greene has the floor.

     MR. COLEMAN (Greene)--I have not yielded the floor.

     MR. SANFORD--I beg pardon.

     MR. COLEMAN (Greene)--Mr. President, and delegates of the Convention, I believe there are quite a number of delegates here, who coincide with the views expressed by the delegate from Macon, Judge Cobb, but I think upon reading the resolution as offered, it will be ascertained that it is not in accordance with the views expressed by him, and I do not believe it is in accordance with the views entertained by a majority of the delegates of this Convention. It says if it can be done without an increase of taxation. As a matter of course, every delegate in this Convention knows full well that there will be money enough in the


771

CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION, 1901

Treasury to raise the Governor's salary to $5,000 a year, but the question is whether or not the Legislature should be compelled to appropriate it for the Governor's salary, if there are other demands of more importance, and more needed than that of an increase of salary. That is the reason that I have offered the amendment. I believe that the fixing of the salary should be left with the Legislature, and the arguments that have been made here, that you cannot trust the Legislature, are arguments, to my mind, in support of the proposition that we should not take it from the legislature, and take advantage of our position and power at this time, to do what we are afraid the people will not have done through their immediate representatives, who represent them upon this identical question.

     Year after year it was said, for twenty-five years, the legislature has failed and refused to raise the Governor's salary, and therefore the argument is that we, without ever giving the people an opportunity to express themselves upon this question, shall take charge of it and do what we are afraid the people will not or require to be done by their immediate representatives. For these reasons, and others that could be mentioned, I offer the amendment.

     MR. HARRISON--I heartily endorse the amendment offered by the delegate from Greene, and I think without it that the resolution will not express the sense of a majority of this Convention. It has been well said by the gentleman from Macon there are many of us upon this floor whose views have been misrepresented, but I thoroughly agree with him, and the mover of this amendment, that it is strictly a legislative prerogative with which this Convention should have nothing to do. I have no objection to expressing the opinion that I think it should be left entirely to the discretion of the General Assembly of Alabama. It is injecting into the consideration here a question of legislation which ought not to be in the Constitution and I believe that the legislature is not only the proper forum, but they will come nearer to representing the views of the people on this question, than this Convention will, and I trust therefore, that this resolution will be adopted and I appeal to the gentlemen who may oppose it, that we may unite in order to relieve any question. Many of them are against it for the reason that many of us did not think it was the duty of this Convention to legislate upon this subject, and that this amendment will be adopted, and I think that will clearly express the views of a majority of this Convention.

     MR. JONES (Montgomery)--Before my friend from Lee resumes his seat, I would like to ask him if he adopts the substitute offered by the gentleman from Greene what is the result of the substitute?

     MR. HARRISON--What is the result of it?


772

OFFICIAL PROCEEDINGS

     MR. JONES (Montgomery)--Yes, what opinion do we express.

     MR. HARRISON--You express the opinion that you are in favor of it if the legislature agrees to it. I think it is their prerogative to pass on the question.

     Mr. Tayloe took the Chair as President pro tem.

     MR. KNOX--Mr. President, the amendment proposed by the gentleman from Greene in effect kills the resolution reported by the Committee on Executive Department. It is offered by an opponent to the original proposition, and it is ingeniously framed so as to kill the resolution. It simply says to the legislature, "Do what you think is best, we express no opinion on the subject." If it was proper for the Constitutional Convention of 1875, at a time of great financial embarrassment, to declare in the Constitution that salaries should be reduced, where is the impropriety in the delegates to this Convention, declaring in favor of an increase when times have improved, and when it is manifest that the salary which the people are paying to their Chief Executive is so meagre, especially when we have the testimony here of distinguished gentlemen who have filled that office who state to us that they were embarrassed, because they were unable to maintain the dignity of the position
with the meagre allowance made to them by the State. I say if it was proper in one Constitutional Convention to reduce the salary, I can see no objection to the delegates to this Convention declaring their opinion that if the finances of the State will warrant it should be increased. Why, Mr. President, I suppose there is not a wholesale merchant who would send out a salesman to negotiate the sale of his goods, that would not allow him reasonable expense money, that he might dress well and that he might stop at such hotels and live in such style as that he would be enabled to command the trade that he was sent to reach. The people of Alabama ought to supply the Chief Executive with such salary as that he can maintain the dignity of the State he represents, and I therefore hope that the amendment offered by the gentleman from Greene will not be adopted.

     MR. BLACKWELL--When we had this question up the other day I voted and argued against any increase by this body of the salary of the Governor of the State for the very reason assigned by the gentleman from Greene. The difference between our reducing the salary of the Governor of the State and other officers in 1875 and our increasing it now is that then the question was before the people and we had pledged the people to reduce them and they had endorsed the pledge and demanded that we reduce the salaries. Now we have not presented the matter to the people and have not had any expression from them and we do not know their will as we did when the salaries were reduced. As a matter of fact, I can see nothing in the resolution of the gentleman


773

CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION, 1901

from Greene that would prevent the Legislature from believing that this Convention in its judgment thought that the salary ought to be increased. The resolution simply avoids instructing. It is just advisory, advising rather than instructing them to do it. Instruction is a different thing from advice and I favor the resolution of the delegate from Greene because it leaves it discretionary with the Legislature, and as I understand we put ourselves on record as saying we believe it ought to be done but we don't command that it be done.

     Mr. Knox resumed the Chair.

     MR. COBB--Does not the amended resolution leave it advisory with the Legislature?

     MR. BLACKWELL--That is why I am advocating it.

     MR. COBB--The amendment which I offered and which was accepted by the committee, does not that leave it entirely advisory?

     MR. BLACKWELL--If it does, the gentleman should not object to another that makes it clearer. This other is clearer, better expressed and leads the Legislature to understand better that we are advising without the least shadow of direction.

     MR. BEDDOW--I move to lay the amendment of the delegate from Greene on the table.

     MR. COLEMAN--Will the gentleman withdraw that?

     MR. PRESIDENT--Will the gentleman withdraw for the purpose of hearing judge Coleman?

     MR. BEDDOW--For that purpose only.

     MR. COLEMAN--Mr. President and delegates of the Convention, I did not have the resolution before me and it is impossible for any person to keep within his mind and memory as the sentences are written, but I offered an amendment which will install into it what I consider ought to be done. The statements which have been made on this floor by distinguished men who have filled the office that they were in pecuniary distress and were not able to uphold the dignity of the office as it should have been, seems to be without force.

     MR. OATES--I desire to interrupt the gentleman. I did not put up such a plea. What I said was that it was wholly inadequate. I expended $5,000 more than I got out of it.

     MR. JONES--I didn't put up a poor mouth, but I said many a time I was unable to give assistance where it was deserved. It cost me $20,000 to hold the office and I am not ashamed to admit it.


774

OFFICIAL PROCEEDINGS

     MR. COLEMAN--I am sorry that the gentleman saw fit to spend his private fortune or a large portion of it in matters that did not pertain to his gubernatorial position.

     MR. JONES (Montgomery)--I will ask you if you do not think it pertained to the gubernatorial position if a woman with a lot of children applied to the Governor for help when she had no place to stay that night?

     MR. COLEMAN--I did not propose to make the reply which I will but it is strange to me that anyone who has experienced the trouble and difficulties of my friend from Montgomery should exercise such unusual exertion as my friend the delegate from Montgomery did to put himself in the office for the second term.

     MR. JONES (Montgomery)--That was because I valued honor more than I did money.

     MR. COLEMAN--I do not think the gentleman has absorbed all the honor or the appreciation of honor in Alabama. I think there are hundreds of men in Alabama who have just as much respect and appreciation of the high honor of the place as my friend from Montgomery. Look at the history of the State and tell me
if with rare exceptions that office has not been filled by the very best men of the State. When was it that we did not have the very best men of the State to aspire to it knowing full well that the salary was $3,000 or about that, I don't know exactly the amount.

     Mr. President, our great loss has been recently alluded to. I hold that there is no man in Alabama more deserving of place and of the good wishes of the people and who experience their loss in greater degree than w e have recently in our great loss. I believe like Solomon in his best days he uttered a prayer that he might have wisdom and knowledge to govern this great people, and I do not doubt that what if his life has been spared he would have given us an exceptional administration here at this time without consulting with people who would undertake to legislate upon matters with which we were not entrusted by the people. When did any man standing as a delegate say that the question of raising the salary of the Governor would be presented and insisted upon? There may be members to this Convention who have winced under the castigation of newspapers when denounced as niggardly and have not voted their sentiments. If there are any such they ought to change their votes. But any man who voted from the dictates of justice, trying to carry out the will of his constituents, ought to have the honesty to stand by his judgment and conclusions. I do not care what they say. I propose to be judged by my life's service rendered, and by my own conscience, and I do not see why, at this time, without consultation and without knowing the wishes of the people, other than as have been


775

CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION, 1901

explained here and manifested for twenty-five years by the House of Representatives, increase this salary.

     The amendment of the delegate from Macon (Mr. Cobb) does not reach the point. It says it shall be done, if it can be done without increasing taxation. Of course, it can be done without increasing taxation, but the great State of Alabama is putting out every dollar she can for school purposes and other developments in this State which are considered to the people more to their interest than any increase in the Governor's salary. Every dollar appropriated to the Governor beyond the present amount will be taken from some other enterprise. You are bound to do it. There will be money in the Treasury, but some other enterprise will suffer. Leave it to the Legislature, and, as the income and revenue increase, we cannot but believe that they will do their duty by the office and the people.

     MR. SANFORD--If your Constitution forbids the raising of the Governor's salary during his term, at which time will the increase of salary take effect? The very fact that it forbids the Legislature to act, prevents any increase of salary.

     MR. COLEMAN--We have provided for that in my amendment. There is no prohibition on the action of the Legislature. It is left to them to judge of in view of the revenue, and when the time comes that the money can be spared, they will do it.

     MR. BEDDOW--I move that the amendment of the delegate from Greene be laid on the table.

     MR. JENKINS--On that I call for the ayes and noes.

     The call was sustained.

     MR. DUKE--It is now about two minutes to 1 o'clock. It will take more than two minutes to call the roll, and I move that the Convention remain in session until this vote is taken.

     The motion was carried.

     The roll call resulted as follows:

AYES.

Messrs. President,

deGraffenreid,

Grant,

Banks,

Duke,

Heflin, of Chambers,

Beddow,

Eley,

Heflin, of Randolph,

Bethune,

Espy,

Hood,

Boone,

Ferguson,

Hinson,

Brooks,

Fitts,

Howell,

Burnett,

Foster,

Howze,

Cobb,

Gilmore,

Inge,

Craig,

Graham, of Montgomery,

Jones, of Bibb,

Dent,

Graham, of Talladega,

Jones, of Hale,


776

OFFICIAL PROCEEDINGS

Jones, of Montgomery,

Miller (Wilcox),

Samford,

Jones, of Wilcox,

Morrisette,

Sanders,

Kyle,

Mulkey,

Sanford,

Ledbetter,

Norman,

Selheimer,

Leigh,

Norwood,

Smith (Mobile),

Locklin,

Oates,

Smith, Morgan M.,

Lomax,

O'Neal (Lauderdale)

Tayloe,

Lowe (Jefferson)

O'Neill (Jefferson)

Waddell,

Macdonald,

Parker (Cullman),

Walker,

McMillan (Baldwin)

Pitts,

Watts,

McMillan (Wilcox)

Proctor,

White,

Malone,

Reese,

Wilson (Clarke)

Maxwell,

Robinson,

Wilson (Wash'gton)

Merrill,

Rogers (Lowndes)

 

NOES.

Almon,

Greer, of Calhoun,

Phillips,

Ashcraft,

Haley,

Pillans,

Barefield,

Handley,

Porter,

Bartlett,

Harrison,

Renfro,

Beavers,

Henderson,

Reynolds (Chilton),

Blackwell,

Hodges,

Reynolds (Henry),

Browne,

Jackson,

Rogers (Sumter),

Bulger,

Jenkins,

Searcy,

Burns,

Kirk,

Sentell,

Byars,

Knight,

Sloan,

Cardon,

Long (Butler)

Smith, Mac. A.,

Carnathon,

Long (Walker),

Sorrell,

Case,

Lowe (Lawrence),

Spears,

Chapman,

Martin,

Spragins,

Cofer,

Miller (Marengo),

Stewart,

Coleman, of Greene,

Moody,

Studdard,

Cornwall,

Murphree,

Thompson,

Davis, of DeKalb,

NeSmith,

Vaughan,

Davis, of Etowah,

Opp,

Whiteside,

Fletcher,

O'Rear,

Williams (Barbour),

Foshee,

Palmer,

Williams (Marengo),

Freeman,

Parker (Elmore),

Williams (Elmore),

Glover,

Pearce,

Winn,

Grayson,

Pettus,

 

ABSENT OR NOT VOTING.

 

 

 

Altman,

Eyster,

Sollie,

Carmichael, of Colbert,

Greer, of Perry,

Weakley,

Carmichael, of Coffee,

King,

Weatherly,

Coleman, of Walker,

Kirkland,

Willett.

Cunningham,

 

 

     THE PRESIDENT--The result is seventy ayes and seventy noes.


777

CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION, 1901

     MR. COLEMAN--I call for a verification of the vote.

     The vote was verified and the vote announced above, so the motion to table was lost.

     MR. COLEMAN--I think that count had better be verified. We have it differently.

     MR. SAMFORD--I rise to a question of inquiry. The other day a report from the Committee on Rules providing for double sessions, I understood, make the sessions begin on Thursday.

     THE PRESIDENT--That was laid on the table, to be called up from day to day, when the Convention desired.

     MR. GREER--I rise to a point of inquiry. I would like to add up that vote.

     MR. JONES--I rise to the point of order that the House stands adjourned.